Phosphates Debate

[RiseNShine]

Hello all,

Long time lurker, first time post.

I am a pool professional of 20 years, having owned and operated a pool service and construction business as my primary source of income and career choice by default.

This forum has been a great resource, despite attending countless training seminars over the years. It provides pool operators of all shapes and sizes from all over the country a glimpse into real-world pool problems and gives anyone who wants to learn about pool care the information they need to take matters into their own hands. As one who will unashamedly open a manual for a piece of equipment I'm repairing, call tech support to be sure I do the right thing, or consult a guide to pool chemistry now and again, I embrace the fact that we are all constantly learning and thats what makes the good, great. So much thanks and respect to those who make this forum happen and to those who contribute to the common goal of clean and safe swimming pools.

So.

Phosphates.
I have been aware of the continuing debate over phosphates and do realize that most pool professionals I have seen post online, take the stance that phosphates are of no concern and can be dealt with through traditional chemical methods. However, in my many years of experience taking care of pools and keeping customers happy, I have routinely turned to phosphate treatments to help clear up countless instances of high orthophosphate pollution, with dramatically positive results. The truth is, to me anyway, that these products really work. Be it the stellar clarifying / floccing effects they provide, or the rapid improvement of a pool's chemical performance (in most cases, by the weekend), something about them just invariably works and I've been able to count on their predictable performance in solving problems quickly time and time again.
That is not to try and debunk the theory that phosphates (really orthophosphates) are not of concern to pool maintenance, but to try and learn why there is such a debate over their impact and the effectiveness of available treatments. Particularly given the cost of the chlorine required in lieu of phosphate treatments and speed at which these phosphate removers work. What are some of your takes and experiences with respect to this debate?

Also, regarding salt chlorine generators: phosphates have been found to incapacitate salt cells. Shouldn't this be of concern when testing high orthophosphates?


tldr:
Why the debate over phosphates, given the fast and predictable effectiveness of available phosphate treatments? What have your experiences been when using more traditional methods of clearing up algae blooms or difficulties with maintaining Cl residual? What about their effects on salt chlorine generators?

Apologies for the long post.
I hope I didn't miss another thread addressing this.

Lou

 

[Leebo]

First and foremost, Welcome to TFP!!!!!!!!


Before diving into your question I’d like to ask a question of yourself. What is your main goal when reducing phosphates??

 

[RiseNShine]

Thanks!

The main goal is usually to solve one of 3 problems:
1- uncontrollable algae bloom
2- inability to maintain chlorine residual
3- clear stubbornly cloudy water, fast

Or, in the case of a SWG if orthophosphates test 1000+ppb

Of course, the 3 problems are usually related to each other and occur simultaneously. But for me one of those 3 is usually the tip off to check the phos and I would invariably tell my techs to test for phos upon reporting any of those 3 (assuming they do their job and report anything )

 

[Pool_Medic]

I see you read the article in Aqua magazine. There was little proof provided that phosphates wreak havoc on the cells, just anecdotal evidence. It’s almost impossible for most pool professionals to use TFP methods as most pools use pucks. There are thousands of pools out there with SWCG that never test or treat phosphates. Your system of treatment is similar to how bioguard uses Algaecide in their pucks. Yes, it’s true, reduce or remove phosphates and a pool has less chlorine demand, but if you maintain chlorine levels above 7.5% of cya you will have no problems. Hayward and Pentair love to use chemical manufacturers recommended levels. These levels are so out of date it’s ridiculous.

You as a pool professional are trained by the chemical companies, that similar to letting the fox guard the hen hut. Look how long it took for the industry to recognize the relationship between chlorine and stabilizer. They are very slow to react.

The only way, imo, that a pool professional can use TFP methods is if all their clients are SWCG or stenner pumps.

 

[Leebo]

I'd like to openly thank you for your comments, however you're attempting to solve problems with the wrong chemical. Using a phosphate remover to clear a pool is simply going to cause you to run in circles and not fully address the problem. You will not be able to accurately test for a proper phosphate level nor will you be able to fully remove phosphates from the water. Let's start with issue number two in your list as it's likely one we can agree on.

2- inability to maintain chlorine residual

If a pool owner isn't able to maintain chlorine (despite adding regularly) one of two things is occurring, either the sun is consuming the chlorine faster than it's being replenished or organics are consuming the chlorine faster than it can be replenished. One can be assisted by using a higher CYA level while the other can be assisted by SLAM Process the pool.

Now I'm assuming you were refering to a user not being able to maintain chlorine in their water due to organic growth, thus goals one and three,

1- uncontrollable algae bloom

3- clear stubbornly cloudy water, fast

In these cases a user needs to use chlorine NOT phosphate removers. One of the first issues a user who is attempting to use a phosphate remover to clear a green pool will run into is testing. When testing water that contains algae for phosphates the user WILL get a false reading. This is a fact that is referred to by even the chemical manufactures as shown in the photo below.


Notice the sentence about half way down of this bottle of phosphate remover from Orenda,

Algae in a Pool will result in a false reading.

If you're willing to simply dump an unmeasured amount of chemical into untested water and hope you kill all the phosphates..........then I guess you could get lucky. But that's not how TFPC works. We'd prefer to add only what's needed and know what we're aiming for.

The second reason using phosphate removers to help address algae is because you'll be chasing your tail as explained in this blog article from Orenda,

Algae holds its micronutrients (like orthophosphate and nitrate) within its cell walls. So when chlorine kills it, those nutrients are released back into the water. And in the right conditions, a new generation of algae can grow…only to be killed by residual chlorine. And again, and again, and again.

So if you're attempting to remove phosphates with a green pool you're again chasing your tail. You may luck out and remove all the phosphates after your first blind dump of phosphate remover only to then kill the algae with any chlorine you may use. Then the dead algae releases it's phosphates back into the water.............and you're stuck at go. Richard Falk (Chem Geek) in this article says it best,

Phosphate removers should not be used to clear an existing algae bloom since the oxidation of algae will release additional orthophosphate. Use them after clearing algae from a pool.

As for phosphate scale in a SWG,
This can happen.........but good luck. The levels of calcium and phosphates must be sky high (like over 1000ppm CH) for this to really ever occur. This is one of those truths that has been blown out of portion just to get users to think they need a chemical they don't fully need.

In short, phosphate removers CAN assist a user if they wish to use some sort of safety net, but they need to be used on a clear, algae free pool. Any attempt to clear algae using phosphate remover is simply misuse of the product and will end up costing the user money.

 

[Dirk]

I've come to learn and appreciate that while most TFP advice is presented in a simplified format, for easy consumption by pool owners, especially new ones, it is based on rock-solid science and not anecdotal evidence. We users of TFPC get the best of both: easy to follow instructions and confidence that it will work.

I'd be very curious to hear what aspects of TFPC you've been able to integrate into your business model. I'm of the opinion that proper pool care cannot be achieved once a week (not without automated dosing devices, and even then testing every few days is the only way to guarantee that those devices are working). And I know that to be competitive a typical pool service cannot visit a pool more than once a week. So are there any TFP methods that you've been able to apply to your offerings that have made your service better than competitors?

The reason I ask (off topic) is because there have been discussions here about how to broaden the use of TFPC to pools whose owners cannot dedicate the time to do it correctly. So they fall back on weekly service companies, which can't take care of a pool as well as TFPC, which typically needs to be performed more often than once a week. A conundrum. The holy grail for those folks is a weekly service solution that could adhere to TFPC. Any luck with that?

 

[Gene Clean]

If you are a pool owner, phosphates should never really be an issue, even for a pool professional for that matter. The SLAM process will always return your pool to normal, however in my experience the use of phosphate remover has always assisted me greatly. Phosphates are the food for algae, so I often lower the phosphate level prior to a slam to speed up the process. So, if you are a home owner, taking care of your own pool, don't waste your money. But as a pool technician, you are being paid to do a full green to blue turn over in a short amount of time, so it is a must.

 

[RiseNShine]

I just had a long and intricate reply to all of your responses in one nice neat post, with all of the quotes thoughtfully arranged and trimmed just so, as to not be a long dissertation. I then navigated away from the page by accident. And. Lost. It. All. It must have been close to an hour of typing.

Anyway.

Here's the "short" version:
I'd like to start by saying that I gave up on owning a service company, providing weekly maintenance. This was due for the most part, to the stress of having employees represent me and my service standards, making important water treatment decisions while on their cell phones. I now am mainly doing only heater repairs and leak detection. However, I find myself now having more time to spend on thorough testing and treatment plans that I couldn't before. Admittedly, I have not spent enough time reading about the TFP method, which would help in better understanding your points of view. I will do so before posting any more topics regarding chemistry.


Pool_Medic:
-Yes I believe I do know the article you're talking about, as I had just revisited the topic after a recent customer with a SWG and an automatic cover was having trouble holding a chlorine level. He spoke about his Cl changing rapidly and turned out to have very high phosphates. Anyway, I didn't know that this was a debated theory, nor have I come across the situation often enough to look much further into it. But thanks for the heads up.
-Re TFP method - I can see how a once-a-week service company would find it difficult to maintain more frequent visits. Again, I do need to read more on TFP methodology.
-Also we didn't routinely check for phos on SWG pools, only when they didn't hold chlorine.


Leebo:
Ugh so many quotes and responses, just vanished into thin air.
-Yes, my 3 issues were moreso indicators to test for phos than actual reasons to treat it.
-Regarding the false readings - my understanding is that a false positive is possible if there is algae in the pool. With my recent customer mentioned above, there was no algae whatsoever. Is there another cause for false readings besides algae?
-VERY interesting about the algae holding phosphates, I never knew that! And it makes perfect sense. Here is where I went into a comparison of a chlorine bomb dropped after lunch and hamburgers and tofu all over the place... nevermind.
But I wonder if my successes with phos removers were due to our routinely shocking at the same time? And conversely any unsuccessful attempts were thwarted by cellphone charlie failing to shock?
-Re: SWG/CH/Phos - I never did notice a correlation between CH and the few salt cells that I did see fail (and had phosphates), but another great tip that I'll keep an eye out for, thank you.


Dirk:
-Zohan?
-I never used or even knew about the TFP when running the company, though it seems to require multiple visits a week. If I do ever start providing weekly maintenance again, perhaps I will try to use what I read about the methodology in the business model. After I do read about it, if I have any ideas on how to do so maybe we can start a discussion on it. Nothing wrong with improving service companies, that's for sure. But what has made me better than my competitors is evidently my answering the phone(?) and proactively following up to be sure any problems were solved to completion. This seems to have resulted in finding myself often working at customers houses by the light of the pool light and my headamp.
-side note: what's the "C" in TFPC?


Gene Clean:
I think your "green to clean" statement says it all. These phosphate removers have been invaluable tools in getting a pool cleared up fast. In the phosphate debate, that is what has always won me over. The pudding. The proof sits precipitated on the bottom of the pool to be vacuumed to waste. But I can't overlook the compelling evidence that there's a better way. Have you had any ideas about incorporating TFP methodology into a weekly service schedule? Off the bat, I have to wonder if a "chems on tuesday, vac on friday" approach could do the trick? But then again, I haven't looked into what exactly the TFP method entails. Much like Donny, I have no frame of reference.



Thanks everyone, for taking the time to respond. I look forward to having a better understanding of the TFP methodology and maybe even having a chance to put it to good use.
Huh, "maybe".. who am I kidding

 

[Gene Clean]

I provide the TPF method to all my pools here in Cali. The trick is finding the FC loss in each of my pools from one week to the other. I tend to keep the CYA up a bit high so the FC can be higher and be safe. I usually leave my clients pool with 12ppm of FC and by next week it is usually down to 5-8ppm. That way it never falls below minimum. I must note, out of all my pools, only about six of them are swam in.

 

[Dirk]

Dirk:
-Zohan?
-I never used or even knew about the TFP when running the company, though it seems to require multiple visits a week. If I do ever start providing weekly maintenance again, perhaps I will try to use what I read about the methodology in the business model. After I do read about it, if I have any ideas on how to do so maybe we can start a discussion on it. Nothing wrong with improving service companies, that's for sure. But what has made me better than my competitors is evidently my answering the phone(?) and proactively following up to be sure any problems were solved to completion. This seems to have resulted in finding myself often working at customers houses by the light of the pool light and my headamp.
-side note: what's the "C" in TFPC?

The forum mechanism includes an auto-save function. If there is something that was saved, you find a little "Restore" button in the lower left corner of the text box. Bummer. I've had it happen to me often enough. Sometimes saved, other times not.

Trouble Free Pool Care. TFP the organization. TFPC the method.

Zohan = TFP, as in "Don't mess with the..." Just me trying to be funny. TFP is a learning website and not a general say-whatever-you-want-argue-fest forum. Not that you were argumentative, at all, you were quite polite and offered an interesting point of view. But this site is heavily moderated to maintain it's unwavering level of accuracy. It only promotes one method of pool care. And does not support others. Which is the foundation of its success and track record. If one comes on here and presents ideas counter to science (and TFPC is science), then the mod's will step in and either correct the misinformation in a follow up post (as was done in your thread) or remove the offending post all together. It's what makes the information here, that so many pool owners rely on day to day, so reliable. Sorry, I'm not a mod and am probably speaking out of turn, but that's my understanding of how this ship sails. So if you make a claim, you need to be able to back it up with science, not anecdotal evidence. I know this personally, because I get corrected all the time!!

Please do continue to study TFPC. And if you ever come up with a model that can be applied to weekly service, do share. Or one, at least, in which a service company could practice TFPC and be competitive and profitable, because that would be a huge benefit to many pool owners that don't have the means to care for a pool themselves.

 

[duraleigh]

PR's have NOTHING to do with killing algae..........that's what chlorine does.

If anyone routinely uses PR's to attempt to clear an algae laden pool, you are misunderstanding the purpose of the product.

 

[Leebo]

Is there another cause for false readings besides algae?

I can only speak for the Taylor K-1106 Test Kit here as that’s what I’ve used. The test itself is a color matching test that takes several minutes to preform. I say this as you mention the pool techs playing on their phones while performing the test. With the length of time needed to preform the test PLUS the fact that color matching tests already are a pain, the idea of user error should come into mind. When the tech is paying attention however, no other issues would cause a false level.

But I wonder if my successes with phos removers were due to our routinely shocking at the same time?

I actually would love to hear your shock process as Pool techs tend to do a different method than we teach. If a user Slams the pool it’s very common to see a green to blue in two days or so. It’s frequently the cloudy to sparkles that causes the roadblocks. It’s possible you were crediting phosphate removals for the suscess of chlorine, but there’s no way to know for sure.

I never did notice a correlation between CH and the few salt cells that I did see fail (and had phosphates), but another great tip that I'll keep an eye out for, thank you.

http://msdssearch.dow.com/PublishedLiteratureDOWCOM/dh_0060/0901b803800602b8.pdf?filepath=/609-02023.pdf&fromPage=GetDo

Here is a brief article from the boiler industry as phosphate scale tends to be a much larger issue there than in pools. In the chart you can see the importance pH and CH plays in of the user will get scale. Keep in mind however, just because your levels may fall in this range doesn’t indicate when or how much scale you’ll get, only if you can. Notice when phosphates actually come into play at normal levels aren’t until the CH level is sky high. The only time really this is a “thing” is when the user is on a metal sequestrant diet in which phosphates are added without the user knowing. Even then it’s seldom seen on the forum.

 

[Gene Clean]

Exactly. As long as your pool chemistry is balanced, phosphates should never be a problem. I have just found that lowering the algae food source is beneficial before starting a SLAM on client pools. Would a standard SLAM turn the pool blue? Yes, 110% but a dose of PR at the starting line has always gotten the results I need 20% faster. As Dave said, PR alone won't help you.

 

[Winnie-the-Pool]

I provide the TPF method to all my pools here in Cali. The trick is finding the FC loss in each of my pools from one week to the other. I tend to keep the CYA up a bit high so the FC can be higher and be safe. I usually leave my clients pool with 12ppm of FC and by next week it is usually down to 5-8ppm. That way it never falls below minimum. I must note, out of all my pools, only about six of them are swam in.

Hmmm...this seems unlikely, with the average reported loss of 2-4ppm of FC per day in the hottest months... even the low end would burn 14ppm per week and it seems it only takes many folks on here just a few days to drift down from shock levels after a SLAM.

 

[AJB1234]

Would one benefit of phosphate remover be that less chlorine is needed for the pool to be algae free? Perhaps we can be at the lower end of the TFPC recommended FC range?

 

[Leebo]

I think it’s safe to say we can all agree that chlorine has a lot to deal with when addressing issues in a pool. I also think we can all agree that over the last ten years the FC/CYA ratio has proven itself as being more than capable of handling these issues. But can phosphate removers be of some assistance when used in clear pools?

Over the last year I’ve used a phosphate remover in my personal pool. I kept having difficulty finding reliable information on the Internet and thought it would be appropriate for me to learn more about it. As is I’m not ready to fully print my findings however I can easily say that I had reduced my phosphates from over 1000ppb to almost zero and now have a more forgiving pool. I learned not to fear the bottom portion of the FC/CYA ratio as I have in the past and feel my pool is more forgiving to my errors than in the past.

 

[AJB1234]

Makes sense and thank you.

 

[Pool_Medic]

Leebo, just what did you use and how much? What was your reading before you started?
I know Richards new project keys in on reduced phosphates to help the cal hypo work better.

 

[Leebo]

At the end of last year I tested using the K-1106 kit and had a result of approximately 1500ppb. Knowing we will need a SLAM in the spring (We reuse any rain or melted snow) I left the phosphates high and moved on. This year as I suspected I opened to a green pool in which I Slammed in early May. Once the SLAM was completed I again tested my phosphates and had a level roughly around 1,500ppb still. I added 10ounces of Orenda PR-10,000 which reduced my phosphate level to around 25ppb. Since that reduction I’ve added only 30ml last month.

 

[Dirk]

When you reduce phosphates chemically like that, is there anything left in the pool from the process that wasn't there before?