Phosphate Removal Question

[037sanch]

Hi everyone! First time poster, long time lurker. Have really enjoyed all the helpful info that I’ve seen here and has really made this learning curve easier than expected.

Question about the great phosphate debate. First, let me say that I completely understand that it’s not “required” and that if I keep all my other chems balanced everything will be OK. I also understand that phosphate removers are somewhat of an insurance policy and the role it plays.

My phosphate levels are >5K, all other chems are within range. I have a lot of construction going on around the pool patio and I’ve deferred my phos treat with PR-10000 until I get closer to completion of the construction. As I get ready to plan ahead here is my question:

If I treat my pool with PR-10000 will the “floculant" that are created cause an issue with my cartridge filter? If so, what alternatives do you recommend other than vacuuming to waste option?
My understanding is the PR-1000 is not an actual floculant but has a similar effect. I’ve also read the advice that says to never floc a cartridge pool, or at least not to vacuum to filter but I’m not sure if this applies to PR-10000 considering it’s not a floculant (but behaves like one).

Looking forward to the comments/recommendations and thanks in advance for the help!

 

[mas985]

I have used PR-10000 with a cartridge filter without issue. But you do want to clean it as soon as the pool clears up and you vacuum the bottom.

 

[reggiehammond]

My phosphate levels are >5K, all other chems are within range. I have a lot of construction going on around the pool patio and I’ve deferred my phos treat with PR-10000 until I get closer to completion of the construction. As I get ready to plan ahead here is my question:

If I treat my pool with PR-10000 will the “floculant" that are created cause an issue with my cartridge filter? If so, what alternatives do you recommend other than vacuuming to waste option?
My understanding is the PR-1000 is not an actual floculant but has a similar effect. I’ve also read the advice that says to never floc a cartridge pool, or at least not to vacuum to filter but I’m not sure if this applies to PR-10000 considering it’s not a floculant (but behaves like one).

Looking forward to the comments/recommendations and thanks in advance for the help!

I don't see a reason why you think you need to do anything re: phosphates.
Manage FC to CYA and ignore them.
FC/CYA Levels

 

[037sanch]

I have used PR-10000 with a cartridge filter without issue. But you do want to clean it as soon as the pool clears up and you vacuum the bottom.

Thanks for sharing your experience!

 

[Donldson]

Welcome to TFP!

If your water is clear then the treatment shouldn't cause problems. I am, however, very concerned that your test results appear to be pool store generated. Good testing is the most critical part of water maintenance and skipping that while concentrating on completely optional and mostly unnecessary keeps the door open for far bigger problems than a little algae.

 

[037sanch]

I don't see a reason why you think you need to do anything re: phosphates.
Manage FC to CYA and ignore them.
FC/CYA Levels

This was one of the readings that I found on the topic. Specially the quote that I took away was:

The threshold limit for phosphate removal is around 1000ppb (1ppm), there is no point in removing phosphates if your phosphate level is below a 1000ppb

Considering my phosphate level is 5x the recommended threshold it sounds like I should do something regarding phosphates. Based on my understanding of the material that I've read if I take action against a high (relative to threshold) phosphate count it will HELP mitigate an algae situation. I think I understand that it doesn't prevent it and I'm continuing to focus on balancing the chems as suggested here, but if I can creative an environment that do not allow algae to thrive then I don't see a reason why I wouldn't.

 

[mas985]

You will find a lot of varying opinions on Phosphates. Even among some of the "Experts".

Phosphates.....are they worth removing??

Over the last few day's there has been a few threads started about phosphates and their benefits in pools. Over the years I've formed a few questions concerning phosphate removers and would like to hear other members thoughts about their use. My first question is a simple one........When are...

www.troublefreepool.com

https://www.troublefreepool.com/threads/lets-talk-phosphates.171392/

I think it is more complicated than it appears.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

At 5,000ppb, I highly suggest removing them. There is NO DOWNSIDE to removing phosphates as long as you follow the directions and you are diligent about cleaning the filter after 48 hours (clearing times vary but usually the cloudiness goes away after 24-36 hours).

You’ve already spent the money on the PR-10000 and so you might as well use it. I also suggest you get your own phosphate test kit (K-1106) and measure the phosphates for yourself before and after treatment. Then monitor them once a month or so. The point of monitoring is to see if there is any fast build up which would indicate that you need to investigate where they are coming from. If they don’t build up quickly, then you can consider this a one time treatment and move on.

 

[037sanch]

Welcome to TFP!

If your water is clear then the treatment shouldn't cause problems. I am, however, very concerned that your test results appear to be pool store generated. Good testing is the most critical part of water maintenance and skipping that while concentrating on completely optional and mostly unnecessary keeps the door open for far bigger problems than a little algae.

Thanks for the welcome! My water is mostly clear - enough that I'm not concerned about it at the moment and my chems are balanced based on the recommendations I've found here. Yes, my phosphate results are from my local pool store. In their defense they haven't pushed product on me when I have discussed with them. I have diligently focused on my testing and its one of the reasons I have been able to achieve the balance I have. So, I wouldn't say I'm skipping that important element or not focused on it enough. Stuff is bound to happen and I'd like to be as prepared as possible when it does..

 

[037sanch]

At 5,000ppb, I highly suggest removing them. There is NO DOWNSIDE to removing phosphates as long as you follow the directions and you are diligent about cleaning the filter after 48 hours (clearing times vary but usually the cloudiness goes away after 24-36 hours).

You’ve already spent the money on the PR-10000 and so you might as well use it. I also suggest you get your own phosphate test kit (K-1106) and measure the phosphates for yourself before and after treatment. Then monitor them once a month or so. The point of monitoring is to see if there is any fast build up which would indicate that you need to investigate where they are coming from. If they don’t build up quickly, then you can consider this a one time treatment and move on.

Thanks for the input. I appreciate the advice and guidance!

 

[Donldson]

So, I wouldn't say I'm skipping that important element or not focused on it enough.

I am not talking about your phosphates, I am talking about everything else. How are you testing your water?

 

[037sanch]

I am not talking about your phosphates, I am talking about everything else. How are you testing your water?

Yeah, I'm talking about everything else. Primarily, I'm using a K-2005 kit. As I'm still learning to do these tests and be more confident about the results. I also take it to two stores alternating just to compare +/- Unfortunately, I don't have a phosphate tester and don't think I'll likely need one once I can get it below 1K and construction around my pool is completed.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

The K-2005 kit doesn’t have the DPD-FAS chlorine test. It uses simple colorimetric comparison. For proper pool care, you need to do titration of the chlorine not color comparison. The regular DPD test in the K-2005 is good and certainly better than the standard yellow OTO test, but it’s not really good enough as the graduation in chlorine level are too far apart.

I highly suggest you focus on doing all your own testing and stay out of pool stores. They are not helpful and their spurious testing will only confuse you and make you second guess your own testing. New pool owners always think comparing against other shops is a good idea but it’s not. You are comparing your results, which are accurate, against a shop that doesn’t give a hoot about being accurate and staffed with minimum wage employees that could care less about you or your pool. It will only lead to trouble.

 

[sacredcow]

My phosphate levels are >5K, all other chems are within range. I have a lot of construction going on around the pool patio and I’ve deferred my phos treat with PR-10000 until I get closer to completion of the construction. As I get ready to plan ahead here is my question:

From my personal experience... My pool was in about the same situation as yours- >5000 ppb phosphates (I ran the testing in my lab at work, so it wasn't a pool store fabrication). I wasn't having any terrible-awful problems, for the most part, but.... I had small spots of black algae that I could NOT eradicate entirely, no matter what I did. Yeah, I know it's insidious and hard to remove, but it seemed like it was always there and wouldn't ever completely resolve.

One day, mostly on a lark, I decided to get the PR10000 and remove the phosphates (I have a DE filter so I can't offer any advice in that regard). Once it was complete, I did another battle with the black algae and was MUCH more successful. Deeply-embedded spots that I couldn't get rid of were suddenly responding to the brushing/chlorine more readily. I can't really figure out why this would be the case, but that's how it happened. YMMV.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Once it was complete, I did another battle with the black algae and was MUCH more successful. Deeply-embedded spots that I couldn't get rid of were suddenly responding to the brushing/chlorine more readily. I can't really figure out why this would be the case, but that's how it happened. YMMV.

Less nutrient availability means slower reproduction rates. In its heavily cloistered environment, chlorine has a hard time getting at the embedded algae and it can grow faster than chlorine can kill it even at SLAM levels. With less phosphate available, the algae will not reproduce as quickly, or at all, and chlorine can more effectively eradicate it. This is also why copper based algaecides, and to a lesser extent, bromine based algaecides are more effective with black algae - they can reach the algae and kill it faster than chlorine can. However, their downside effects are unwanted in a residential pool

 

[reggiehammond]

Thanks for the welcome! My water is mostly clear - enough that I'm not concerned about it at the moment and my chems are balanced based on the recommendations I've found here.

Mostly clear sounds like you'd fail an Overnight Chlorine Loss Test. TFP methods produce gin-clear results. Follow the SLAM Process to clear up your algae you likely have (reason you call it "mostly clear.")

As mentioned upthread, you need a proper test kit, which mostly revolves around turning your 2005 into a 2006 with addition of the FAS-DPD test. You also need a K-1766 salt test kit to be successful with a SWCG.
FC/CYA Levels

It's very common for new folks around the forum to latch on to really rare situations when the simplest answer is true - not enough FC relative to CYA. Can't recall how many threads I've seen re: mustard algae, phosphates, etc that were actually just improper pool care that are easier to solve.