Phosphate Levels

[gsBucks]

I am having real trouble lowering my phosphate levels, they are over 1000.

My most recent readings are Total Hardness: <25ppm, pH: 7.2, TA: 100, CYA 50-100, Free Chlorine 1, Total Chlorine 1, Salt 1750, Phosphates 1000 (maybe higher?), and the water is slightly cloudy.

I have a new Hot Springs Pulse (filled Dec 20). The local vendor did not setup the Freshwater Salt system until Jan 12 (so it has not been running long, and I actually turned it off last night following the phosfree instructions). I got it balanced and looking good pretty quickly, but the phosphate levels were high (over 2000). I am also having trouble differentiating the pink/red pH color (doing my best with strips until my Taylor kit arrives in a couple days), but I am pretty confident I am generally keeping it "in range".

I have two problems that seem to be alluding me, and any advice would be appreciated.

1) My understanding is that the Hot Springs Freshwater system needs Phosphates to be below 300ppm. Before the Freshwater system was installed, I started to try to bring this down from over 2000. I added about 2-3oz of SpaGuard Phosphate Remover at time, run the pumps, clean the filter, wait 24-48 hours ... seemingly no affect using the test strip. Used the entire bottle by Jan 12. The tech who installed the system said I need something "stronger" and recommended phosfree. I added 2oz of phosfree extra strength last night and ran the filter for 45 minutes. About 4 hours later, no affect on the test strip at all. I know I am supposed to wait 24 hours, but I was really hoping to see SOME change. I added clarifier (some seem to recommend this with the phosfree) and ran the pumps again ... Am I doing something wrong? I have seen somewhere that low calcium can affect phosfree. I originally filled the tub with an "on the go", and the tech *still* used the "Vanishing Act" bag because he said "the lower the better" for a the Hot Springs Freshwater salt system. I have seen conflicting results about the importance of phosphate level in general, but everything I can find seems to indicate it really is important for a salt water system, so I have been trying to bring this down with very poor results.

2) I went away for 4 days around the new year, and my water has been very slightly cloudy since then. I can see the jets on the bottom, but its hazy. Turn on the lights and it does not look too bad. On Jan 12 the tech who installed the salt system said "your water should be clearer" without being prompted by me. He suggested to get the salt water system going, keep it chlorinated while it gets going and see what happens in a few days. Still cloudy, but I did just add the phosfree which I know can make the water cloudy. I have kept the FC up using 7.5% liquid chlorine while running the salt system. With the salt system set to "boost" it held an FC of about 3-5ppm for 24 hours (so I presume everything was doing its job?). I have tried adding Enzymes a couple times. I have tried non-chlorine shock once. Planning to try both again today once the phosfree has been in for 24 hours.

It is unsafe and/or counterproductive to use the hot tub while trying to clear up these issue?

I am brand new to the water chemistry for either a pool or a spa, so any guidance would be very much appreciated.

 

[Newdude]

Hey GS and Welcome !!!

Forget about phosphates. They are 'algae food' and if you are properly chlorinated, algae can't grow in an inhospitable environment.

I liken them to all the cans of dog food at Petco. 'BuT iTs DoGfOoD!!!!!' Yeah ? So what. It's never once produced a dog when it's properly sealed away.

Forget about them even more in a hot tub that gets dumped every 3 to 6 months. In a pool they continue to increase and at some point (a very very high level) its only a matter of time until life gets in the way of sanitizing and the algae bloom will be a runaway train. But that's rare enough in pools and even rarer in hot tubs.

But the industry is fixated on algae control, which is needed due to the inability of the weekly 'Dump and Pray' method to properly sanitize all week.

We are also anti Clarifier here. It's a bandaid which does bupkiss for the root of the issue which is lack of proper sanitizing. It clears things up, one goes right back to fouling it up and more Clarifier is needed.

Clarifier - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

Have a read

How do I use Chlorine in my Spa or Hot Tub?

If you have a question about any information within this Sticky, please start a new thread for yourself where you will receive very quick responses to your specific questions. Thank you! Introduction There are two main things to consider when maintaining your hot tub water, Water Balance and...

www.troublefreepool.com

Any hot tub will get away from you given enough time. You're first inkling of not being able to tame it (when properly maintaining all along) is that it's time to dump and start over. 3 months is best for most people, some can occasionally push it to 6 months.

 

[Mdragger88]

Most here don’t even test for phosphates.
Most phosphate removers will cloud the water.
If the water was clear and adequate sanitation was maintained
See—> FC/CYA Levels
Before adding the phosphate remover then I would suspect the product(s).
But the fact that you went away for several days leads me to believe that the cloudiness is a sanitation issue.
The answer to that is to do the
SLAM Process with liquid chlorine until you meet the crystal clear & cc’s 0.5 or below criteria. You’ll need your test kit to do this.
Or you can just drain & start over if that doesn’t work.
We recommend that all tubs (even brand new ones) be purged with initially & at least every 6 months thereafter to remove biofilms from the plumbing that can lead to higher fc demand.
Now would be a good chance to do so.
Most here prefer Ahhsome.

what is ahh-some?

What is Ahh-some?

www.google.com

Here’s the chlorine spa guide

How do I use Chlorine in my Spa or Hot Tub?

If you have a question about any information within this Sticky, please start a new thread for yourself where you will receive very quick responses to your specific questions. Thank you! Introduction There are two main things to consider when maintaining your hot tub water, Water Balance and...

www.google.com

How did the phosphates get in your water?
Did you use alot of sequesterant?
It is recommended to maintain a lower ch level with The freshwater system or it will foul the cells prematurely.
Do you know the ch of your fill water?
Some have noted that keeping phosphates low helps their swcg produce more optimally - there is such a thing as phosphate scale but it is not very common

Phosphate Removers - Further Reading

www.google.com

 

[gsBucks]

Will do the SLAM when I get the test kit so I can reliable check CYA and FC. Its a bit cold outside to try to replace the water at the moment .

As to how did the phosphate get in the water, I honestly do not know. I did "blindly" use a metal sequestrate that was included in the "startup kit", perhaps that was a bad idea. I would not say "a lot", added the recommended amount once.

My fill water hardness is "around" 200-300ppm, but that was run through "on the go" and is was less than 25ppm in the tub ... before the tech used the "vanishing act" bag. Note, I originally measured the high phosphates before he used the vanishing act.

Thanks for the links. After reading I think my plan should be wait to get the testing kit, slam the tub, and then test the phosphates and try to remove if necessary. Sounds like any algae/cloudiness could be the cause of the phosphates?

 

[Mdragger88]

Sounds like any algae/cloudiness could be the cause of the phosphates?

You’ve got it backwards- phosphate remover in large amounts will almost certainly cause cloudiness & that likely holds some blame here.
Algae does contain phosphates but it is unusual to get algae in a covered hot tub. Its the other nasties that tend to thrive & takeover in that environment.
A lapse in sanitation (fc below minimum) even for a very short time is generally to blame for spa cloudiness (cuz of the bacteria & pathogens ) so doing the slam is certainly required if you’re not going to exchange the water.
You need to be cleaning the filter daily while it’s cloudy. If the phosphate remover is partially to blame understand that part of its job is to clump the phosphates so the filter can catch them. You must keep it clean so it can.
Main takeaway- ignore the phosphate level, clean up the mess with slam & filtering. If you go many rounds without improvement consider draining & refilling.
if you suspect you have a metals issue (ie. well water) use an appropriate amount of sequesterant- if not forego it on the next fill to avoid adding additional phosphates.
If you’re still concerned about phosphates get the drop based Taylor phosphate test & use only the appropriate amount of good phosphate remover (Orenda 10,000 or Seaklear).
The reason for the recommendation with the freshwater system is that the pricey disposable cartridges/cells tend foul quickly with high phosphates along with high ch due to scaling.
Your ch is now nil so I suspect you’ll be fine on that front if you keep your ph in the 7’s to prevent any scaling.
I wouldn’t go chasing your tail with the phosphates unless it starts being a problem with very prematurely fouled cells or obviously low production.
*Note that many people don’t always get the advertised 4 months out of the cartridges even with zero phosphate levels, very low ch, & proper ph maintenance. It can get to be an expensive system because of its throw a way cells.

 

[ajw22]

As to how did the phosphate get in the water, I honestly do not know. I did "blindly" use a metal sequestrate that was included in the "startup kit", perhaps that was a bad idea. I would not say "a lot", added the recommended amount once.

HEDP based sequestrants will break down into phosphates.

Sequestrant - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[98Poolmaster]

You’ve got it backwards- phosphate remover in large amounts will almost certainly cause cloudiness & that likely holds some blame here.
Algae does contain phosphates but it is unusual to get algae in a covered hot tub. Its the other nasties that tend to thrive & takeover in that environment.
A lapse in sanitation (fc below minimum) even for a very short time is generally to blame for spa cloudiness (cuz of the bacteria & pathogens ) so doing the slam is certainly required if you’re not going to exchange the water.
You need to be cleaning the filter daily while it’s cloudy. If the phosphate remover is partially to blame understand that part of its job is to clump the phosphates so the filter can catch them. You must keep it clean so it can.
Main takeaway- ignore the phosphate level, clean up the mess with slam & filtering. If you go many rounds without improvement consider draining & refilling.
if you suspect you have a metals issue (ie. well water) use an appropriate amount of sequesterant- if not forego it on the next fill to avoid adding additional phosphates.
If you’re still concerned about phosphates get the drop based Taylor phosphate test & use only the appropriate amount of good phosphate remover (Orenda 10,000 or Seaklear).
The reason for the recommendation with the freshwater system is that the pricey disposable cartridges/cells tend foul quickly with high phosphates along with high ch due to scaling.
Your ch is now nil so I suspect you’ll be fine on that front if you keep your ph in the 7’s to prevent any scaling.
I wouldn’t go chasing your tail with the phosphates unless it starts being a problem with very prematurely fouled cells or obviously low production.
*Note that many people don’t always get the advertised 4 months out of the cartridges even with zero phosphate levels, very low ch, & proper ph maintenance. It can get to be an expensive system because of its throw a way cells.

He

You’ve got it backwards- phosphate remover in large amounts will almost certainly cause cloudiness & that likely holds some blame here.
Algae does contain phosphates but it is unusual to get algae in a covered hot tub. Its the other nasties that tend to thrive & takeover in that environment.
A lapse in sanitation (fc below minimum) even for a very short time is generally to blame for spa cloudiness (cuz of the bacteria & pathogens ) so doing the slam is certainly required if you’re not going to exchange the water.
You need to be cleaning the filter daily while it’s cloudy. If the phosphate remover is partially to blame understand that part of its job is to clump the phosphates so the filter can catch them. You must keep it clean so it can.
Main takeaway- ignore the phosphate level, clean up the mess with slam & filtering. If you go many rounds without improvement consider draining & refilling.
if you suspect you have a metals issue (ie. well water) use an appropriate amount of sequesterant- if not forego it on the next fill to avoid adding additional phosphates.
If you’re still concerned about phosphates get the drop based Taylor phosphate test & use only the appropriate amount of good phosphate remover (Orenda 10,000 or Seaklear).
The reason for the recommendation with the freshwater system is that the pricey disposable cartridges/cells tend foul quickly with high phosphates along with high ch due to scaling.
Your ch is now nil so I suspect you’ll be fine on that front if you keep your ph in the 7’s to prevent any scaling.
I wouldn’t go chasing your tail with the phosphates unless it starts being a problem with very prematurely fouled cells or obviously low production.
*Note that many people don’t always get the advertised 4 months out of the cartridges even with zero phosphate levels, very low ch, & proper ph maintenance. It can get to be an expensive system because of its throw a way cells.

We have sold the Freshwater systems on Hot Spring for years now,the cells rarely last more than four months.The display showing the life left in the cell is just a range not a percentage so it can be tricky as it gets near the end of its use.A lot of times people will change them before they are out by guessing how old they are.The other salt system they make was called an Ace which the cell was inside the filter housing and you could see it producing chlorine on the plates by the bubbles.The Freshwater cell is in a contained area where the cell slides down inside it and cannot be seen if it is still making chlorine so that’s where the display comes in to play.CH needs to be between 25-75 for optimum performance and phosphate level near or at zero per Watkins instructions.For the most part this is very accurate and helps extend the life of the cells at 125 a piece now it’s not cheap.I personally don’t like salt for tubs but some people want them.Hot Spring has a new system coming out in 2024 called the Freshwater IQ which has a sensor that monitors chlorine salt and ph and gives dosage info based on ph adjustments looks pretty cool but we haven’t got one yet.I will put something in this forum once I get one and can play with it for awhile and see how good it is.But yes as @ajw22 said HEDP based sequestrants do become phosphates with too much use.

 

[Mdragger88]

He

We have sold the Freshwater systems on Hot Spring for years now,the cells rarely last more than four months.The display showing the life left in the cell is just a range not a percentage so it can be tricky as it gets near the end of its use.A lot of times people will change them before they are out by guessing how old they are.The other salt system they make was called an Ace which the cell was inside the filter housing and you could see it producing chlorine on the plates by the bubbles.The Freshwater cell is in a contained area where the cell slides down inside it and cannot be seen if it is still making chlorine so that’s where the display comes in to play.CH needs to be between 25-75 for optimum performance and phosphate level near or at zero per Watkins instructions.For the most part this is very accurate and helps extend the life of the cells at 125 a piece now it’s not cheap.I personally don’t like salt for tubs but some people want them.Hot Spring has a new system coming out in 2024 called the Freshwater IQ which has a sensor that monitors chlorine salt and ph and gives dosage info based on ph adjustments looks pretty cool but we haven’t got one yet.I will put something in this forum once I get one and can play with it for awhile and see how good it is.But yes as @ajw22 said HEDP based sequestrants do become phosphates with too much use.

I assume they simply didn’t make enough money with the already pricey ace system so they abandoned it for the more frequently & easily replaced cell cartridges.
Many people here with either of those systems (ace/freshwater) have chosen to just go the independent drape over swcg route after growing weary of the issues & expense.
The iq thing sounds like orp which has its own unique issues when cya or higher tds (as can be very common in a salt spa) is involved. I see that clashing with the “same water for a year” claim. It will be interesting to see if it’s actually helpful or just another expensive & complicating set of bells & whistles.

 

[98Poolmaster]

I assume they simply didn’t make enough money with the already pricey ace system so they abandoned it for the more frequently & easily replaced cell cartridges.
Many people here with either of those systems (ace/freshwater) have chosen to just go the independent drape over swcg route after growing weary of the issues & expense.
The iq thing sounds like orp which has its own unique issues when cya or higher tds (as can be very common in a salt spa) is involved. I see that clashing with the “same water for a year” claim. It will be interesting to see if it’s actually helpful or just another expensive & complicating set of bells & whistles.

I assume they simply didn’t make enough money with the already pricey ace system so they abandoned it for the more frequently & easily replaced cell cartridges.
Many people here with either of those systems (ace/freshwater) have chosen to just go the independent drape over swcg route after growing weary of the issues & expense.
The iq thing sounds like orp which has its own unique issues when cya or higher tds (as can be very common in a salt spa) is involved. I see that clashing with the “same water for a year” claim. It will be interesting to see if it’s actually helpful or just another expensive & complicating set of bells & whistles.

Yes the IQ cannot use silver ozone bromine or MPS and the orp sensor says up to 12 months.I have my doubts with exactly what you said,it’s an expensive new toy for Watkins to promote they haven’t had anything new in years, so engineers and marketing people have been hard at work on it for three years now.Its just the latest and greatest so we will see how it goes,our GM went down to Orlando for their East Coast unveiling this week he’ll be back Monday and we will see what he found out.I have already gone through the PDF file they have available three times so I have a pretty good idea what he will tell us.I will let the forum know what is the deal,but I’m pretty sure you already know the jist of it.

 

[JamesW]

I am having real trouble lowering my phosphate levels, they are over 1000.

Note that phosphates are reported in parts per billion (PPB) and not parts per million (PPM).

1,000 PPB is only 1 ppm.

So, while the number seems big, it really is not as big as it seems.

 

[98Poolmaster]

Note that phosphates are reported in parts per billion (PPB) and not parts per million (PPM).

1,000 PPB is only 1 ppm.

So, while the number seems big, it really is not as big as it seems.

One ppb is equivalent to one second in 32 years

 

[98Poolmaster]

One ppb is equivalent to one second in 32 years

One ppm is one inch in 16 miles