Pentair IC40 alternatives?

[newdude]

looks like the TF-Pro Salt is the way I'll go now that I just looked at it more.

Another win for the TF kits.... They're guaranteed fresh. With Amazon/Leslie's (etc) there's no telling how long the kits sat on a shelf before you've opened them and see the expiration dates. Double that when a reseller(s) is involved because it may have sat on more than one shelf.

And the TF kit owner is available here. We're all human and things happen, but Nate is quick to step in and make things right, publicly for all to see. It's not just recomedations, it's well proven truth. Or maybe it's a shipping issue not of their control, but they make those right too. Per a member this spring, Nate talked to him on the phone for 45 mins on a 3 day weekend no less, thoroughly going over all the options. Good LUCK getting Beezos to return your call, ever.

I always recommend the 'slam option' for folks with swamps and newbs. Both will be testing far more than normal at first, and will deplete any standard kits supplies.

 

[PumpinIron]

Remember - happy wife, happy life.

Do you know where the autofill is hooked into your house water?
Once you get your test kit, you can test the CH of your fill water to see if it's soft or hard.

Does your house have an existing soft water loop where the softener was added?

Post a few pics of your autofill conjection point and the water softener setup.

So we are from Oregon originally and only moved to Arizona 3.5 years ago. Because of that I had no idea what a water softener even was until we moved to Arizona. The water in Oregon is nice and clean and not full of the minerals that it is down here in Arizona.

Fortunately our house came with a high end water softener system that the previous owner installed. Of course I still know very little about the system other than that I fill it with salt every few months.

I’ll snap some photos of the setup when I get home in 30 minutes and hopefully one of you guys can guide me in right direction.

 

[PumpinIron]

Here are the photos of my water softener set up. Let me know if there’s any other photos. You guys need to help me figure this out. Again, I appreciate all your help. This is quite easily the most helpful forum I’ve ever been a member of.

 

[Dirk]

Once you get your test kit, you can test the CH of your fill water to see if it's soft or hard.

Yep, Gene beat me to it. Though I doubt your pool filler is connected to your indoor circuit. The CH test will tell for sure. Here's how I added mine to my softener. It's a few posts buried in a very long thread about my trials and tribulations of taking over the maintenance of my pool:

#76

 

[Dirk]

Here are the photos of my water softener set up. Let me know if there’s any other photos. You guys need to help me figure this out. Again, I appreciate all your help. This is quite easily the most helpful forum I’ve ever been a member of.

View attachment 538503View attachment 538504View attachment 538505View attachment 538506View attachment 538507

Here's everything you'll need to know about that setup: It looks like the owner manual is stuffed behind the one on the left!

If you need to know more than that, @JoyfulNoise is our resident softie.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

If the softener came with the house previously installed, then it’s unlikely there was any provisions made to bring softened water to the outside. In AZ, and pretty much anywhere else that needs water softeners, the household plumbing is split into two feeds. The main line feeds two manifolds of plumbing - one for softened water and one for raw water. The loop on the garage is where the softener hooks up to. It’s fed directly from the water main and then goes to a manifold (inside the wall somewhere) where softened water is fed to your heater(s), your toilets, your showers, clothes washing machines, and your bathroom sinks. The raw water manifold feeds the outdoor spigots, the cold kitchen water faucet (typically) and, sometimes, cold water in utility sinks in a laundry room. If the refrigerator has a water line, that typically comes off the kitchen sink cold water tap (you don’t want to drink or make ice cubes with softener water).

You have dual tank system, probably installed for high capacity to reduce the number of regeneration. I can’t really see all the plumbing on the backend but the tank on the right is probably the one attached to the inlet and the tank on the left is hooked up to the outlet. The outlet of the right tank is plumber to the inlet of the left tank so the tanks are in series. The red PEX line is just the regen waste line which probably daylights out into your laundry room drain (you would see an open pipe sticking down into the drain line that your washing machine uses). The other tube (black it looks like) coming out of the salt tank (please don’t store stuff on the salt tank, it’s not meant for that …) is for the control valves to create brine and then draw it up into the softener tanks during regeneration.

Unless there was a provision made to run a line outside, you can’t easily add softened water to your pool. When my softener was installed, I had them not only run a line outside to my buried autofill line but I also had them run a line over by my garage so that there is softener water available for washing a car. You don’t want to use regular water to wash a car or else it leaves really bad mineral spots. Even with softened water your can get water spots if you don’t dry the car well but it’s way worse with calcium/magnesium deposits as those will scratch up paint if you rub them when they’re dry.

 

[Dirk]

Unless there was a provision made to run a line outside, you can’t easily add softened water to your pool. When my softener was installed, I had them not only run a line outside to my buried autofill line but I also had them run a line over by my garage so that there is softener water available for washing a car. You don’t want to use regular water to wash a car or else it leaves really bad mineral spots. Even with softened water your can get water spots if you don’t dry the car well but it’s way worse with calcium/magnesium deposits as those will scratch up paint if you rub them when they’re dry.

I can vouch for the fact that "you can’t easily add softened water to your pool," but if there is a will, there is a way! And note in my story about how I did it that I included an exterior soft water hose bib for the very reason that Matt suggests. Washing the car, or exterior windows, or PV solar panels, etc.

The circuits and manifolds that Matt describes is how my house was done. But when a contractor includes the water softener hookups in the garage, they really should also include an exterior soft water hose bib. It would be such a simple thing during construction. Retrofitting it is a pain.

 

[Dirk]

If you do, in fact, have the two independent circuits in your house, one soft water, the other "street" water, you can use some sleuthing to determine how much trouble it would take to get soft water into your pool.

Did you mention: do you have an auto-fill system for your pool? Or a manual fill system? Or do you fill with a hose?

How close is your water softener to the source that fills your pool? Your soft water circuit is exposed in your garage. Technically you could run a pipe from the softener output to your filler system, if there is a path. It doesn't necessarily need to be in the walls or in the attic.

But you can look elsewhere, too. Is your fill system source close to a bathroom? If the sink or shower valves or tub valves are on an exterior wall, that means there is a soft water source right there. It's a relatively simple matter to punch that source through the exterior wall and voila, you've got a soft water hose bib on the outside. You can then fill your pool with a hose, or you can connect that new hose bib plumbing to your pool fill plumbing.

Point being, it may not be as hard as you think to get soft water into your pool, either manually or automatically.

 

[proavia]

Looking at your softener and the plumbing going into the wall, it appears you have a builder installed soft water loop that the softener was added to. That being said, the outside rear hose bib is most probably hard water and chances are the autofill is plumbed to that so it is also hard water. Testing the CH of the autofill supply line will confirm. While you're testing the CH of the fill line, test the pH and TA also as that will let us know what you are starting with for fill water. Chances are, with a builder installed soft water loop, the cold water to your kitchen sink may also be hard water - just the way they have done it here for the last 25+ years.

You can always run a soft water line from the garage to the autofill. That's what I wound up doing. A bit of work, but worth it in the end. Another option is if you have a cold water source inside the house that is on an exterior wall - a water line can easily be tapped into that.

Let us know when you test kit arrives!

 

[Dirk]

Looking at your softener and the plumbing going into the wall, it appears you have a builder installed soft water loop that the softener was added to. That being said, the outside rear hose bib is most probably hard water and chances are the autofill is plumbed to that so it is also hard water. Testing the CH of the autofill supply line will confirm. While you're testing the CH of the fill line, test the pH and TA also as that will let us know what you are starting with for fill water. Chances are, with a builder installed soft water loop, the cold water to your kitchen sink may also be hard water - just the way they have done it here for the last 25+ years.

You can always run a soft water line from the garage to the autofill. That's what I wound up doing. A bit of work, but worth it in the end. Another option is if you have a cold water source inside the house that is on an exterior wall - a water line can easily be tapped into that.

Let us know when you test kit arrives!

Great minds think alike, but today I typed faster!

 

[PumpinIron]

Okay, I’m going to call a buddy over who is a plumber and have him investigate for me. I suspect you guys are right and there is no soft water going into the pool.

The pool has an auto-filler and it’s got a valve for it on the water spigot on the side of the house.

The good news is that the water softener system is relatively close to the pool and on the same side of the house, so I suspect this could be a fairly easy project all things considered.

Since I am not a plumber I am going to see what my friend says. If I could get soft water going into the system that would be very helpful. The amount of calcium build-up is pretty intense.

Once the test kit arrives we shall see.

 

[proavia]

Okay, I’m going to call a buddy over who is a plumber and have him investigate for me. I suspect you guys are right and there is no soft water going into the pool.

The pool has an auto-filler and it’s got a valve for it on the water spigot on the side of the house.

The good news is that the water softener system is relatively close to the pool and on the same side of the house, so I suspect this could be a fairly easy project all things considered.

Since I am not a plumber I am going to see what my friend says. If I could get soft water going into the system that would be very helpful. The amount of calcium build-up is pretty intense.

Once the test kit arrives we shall see.

If it's relatively close, do it.
Chances are the CH level of the pool rises by 200-350 ppm or more per year.

I drilled a hole in the side of the garage wall and used copper pipe until under ground, then schedule 40 PVC. I installed a shutoff valve near the softener where I tapped into the soft water line. Where the pipe exited the garage, I installed a backflow preventer (prevents any pool water from backing up into the water lines and is usually code for any outside water). The most difficult job was digging in our hard dirt.

 

[PumpinIron]

If it's relatively close, do it.
Chances are the CH level of the pool rises by 200-350 ppm or more per year.

I drilled a hole in the side of the garage wall and used copper pipe until under ground, then schedule 40 PVC. I installed a shutoff valve near the softener where I tapped into the soft water line. Where the pipe exited the garage, I installed a backflow preventer (prevents any pool water from backing up into the water lines and is usually code for any outside water). The most difficult job was digging in our hard dirt.

Yep, that's very similar to what I'd have to do. A hole in the side of the garage, then dig a trench and run some copper pipe about 20 feet to the backyard and install a shutoff valve. I can visualize it in my head and it's not too bad other than digging the hard Arizona dirt as you mentioned.

I'll update this once my buddy comes by and gives me his professional plumber opinion.

Also, I need to figure out if the water softener system we have is up to the task. I was told by San Tan Valley Water Solutions (the people who installed it for the previous homeowner) that this is their top-of-the-line system, so that's good news at least.

 

[Dirk]

Also, I need to figure out if the water softener system we have is up to the task.

Depends on how long it takes for her to wash her hair!!

I have a low-use household so my $600 softener from Lowe's keeps up with us and our pool no problem. I don't know the exact frequency, but it never regenerates every night, even in mid-summer. So I know it keeps up fine.

I once tracked how much water I could fill my pool with it, by testing the CH every inch of fill. This was when I dumped about 16" of water to clear out some of my CH. I figured as long as I was getting near-zero CH out of the softener each test, it was doing fine. I got to about 2500 gallons before I started to see a bump in CH. So I let it regenerate, then finished the fill (about 4000 gallons total). It was pretty impressive, and my softener is about eight years old.

With your turbo-charged system, I expect you'll be just fine for day-to-day topping off, no matter how many times she lathers-rinses-repeats.

 

[PumpinIron]

Depends on how long it takes for her to wash her hair!!

I have a low-use household so my $600 softener from Lowe's keeps up with us and our pool no problem. I don't know the exact frequency, but it never regenerates every night, even in mid-summer. So I know it keeps up fine.

I once tracked how much water I could fill my pool with it, by testing the CH every inch of fill. This was when I dumped about 16" of water to clear out some of my CH. I figured as long as I was getting near-zero CH out of the softener each test, it was doing fine. I got to about 2500 gallons before I started to see a bump in CH. So I let it regenerate, then finished the fill (about 4000 gallons total). It was pretty impressive, and my softener is about eight years old.

With your turbo-charged system, I expect you'll be just fine for day-to-day topping off, no matter how many times she lathers-rinses-repeats.

The good news is that no one takes really long showers the house so I think the softener system is more than up to the task.

I don't know what this system cost, I'm just happy I didn't pay for it.

 

[proavia]

Yep, that's very similar to what I'd have to do. A hole in the side of the garage, then dig a trench and run some copper pipe about 20 feet to the backyard and install a shutoff valve. I can visualize it in my head and it's not too bad other than digging the hard Arizona dirt as you mentioned.

I'll update this once my buddy comes by and gives me his professional plumber opinion.

Also, I need to figure out if the water softener system we have is up to the task. I was told by San Tan Valley Water Solutions (the people who installed it for the previous homeowner) that this is their top-of-the-line system, so that's good news at least.

I put a shut off valve (bronze ball valve) in the garage. Then thru the wall to the bronze pressure vacuum break (which has two T-handle ball valves). Copper pipe until under ground, then PVC. I added a new shutoff valve (true union PVC) in a valve box where the hard water Darn off is to the autofill and then to the autofill pipe itself.

Ask STVWS how many grains the unit is rated for. A 64K or higher is ideal - but a lower grain capacity will just mean it regenerates more frequently when plumbed to the autofill.
I think the tank on the left is some type of filter (that regenerates as needed per the programming) and the tank on the right is the actual water softener (which also regenerates after processing 'x' number of gallons).
My guess is that the softener is a 48K or larger unit.

 

[Dirk]

Because my CH still crept up slightly over five years of softener hookup, I took it up a notch. I expect some CH is getting past my water softener, especially when it is filling the pool just before it needs to regenerate. But I also think some is getting to the pool during the softener's regeneration cycle. The softener goes into bypass mode while regenerating. Which means any water used during that couple hours is going to be coming directly from the street (which is why you generally schedule the regen cycle in the middle of the night). So if the pool's auto-filler kicks on during that few hours, the pool will receive unsoftened CH-rich water. To combat that, I added an automatic valve that shuts off supply to my auto-filler during the time my softener is set to regenerate. I won't know for several years if this will make a significant difference, but the theory is sound.

I can provide details if you're interested in that level of geekery. It's something that's easy to add if you do it along with the other plumbing you'll be doing. And relatively cheap.

I, too, have a proper backflow preventer. I use this one:

Amazon.com

Unfortunately the price has doubled since I bought it.

 

[proavia]

I, too, have a proper backflow preventer. I use this one:

Me too, my backflow twin. GMTA

 

[PumpinIron]

The test kit arrived today so I’ll test and report back soon.

Good news is my friend the plumber is coming out on Monday to run lines from the water softener to the auto filler. He said it will only take a day or two and it’s not that hard.

I look forward to better water in my pool!

 

[Dirk]

You're using the Pool Math app, right? It can track more than one pool, and there's more than one way to make use of that feature. Set up at least two "Pools," two sets of test data. One for your pool, and one for your source water (city or well?). You could even have a third for your fill water, after the softener, after it is connected.

Do the full set of tests regularly for your pool and record them in Pool Math, in the "Your Pool" pool data set. That'll be your normal day-to-day, week-to-week test results to help you determine the proper dosing of chemicals.

Then do a partial set of tests for your source water. And again for your softened water. Record each in their own Pool Math pool. This will give you some data for comparison over time, to see how both your source water might change, and how your softener output might change. If you're super curious, you could test your source a few times a year, at least at first. My municipality changes its water source by the seasons, one from a local lake, the other from ground water, maybe even mixing the two sometimes. The chemistries are very different, and affect my strategy for exchanging water (as one has significantly more CH in it). These tests would help you determine if your source and fill water is chemically stable or not, and so help you form your own strategies.

You only need to test a few things for the source and fill. CH mainly. pH if you're having pH issues in your pool. TA if you're having TA issues. Salt if you're curious, but it's not really critical, as your pool is going to gain salt no matter what. You don't need to test for CYA, there won't be any. FC would probably be too low to be of use, and wouldn't affect your day-to-day maintenance anyway, so you don't need to test FC for your source or fill water.

These extra sets of data will give you a good baseline, to help you (and us) determine what is going on with your water and how to correct it when necessary.

It's also a great way to practice with your new kit at first.

PS. After the first few tests, you're going to say "Gee, they were sure right about that SpeedStir!" Have fun.