We are ready to start building and I was wondering what is a typical payment schedule for a company building a pool/spa/grotto?I don't want to put too much money out before work is completed and risk the contractor just taking the money and not completing. I have always built my own pools and paid contractors after each completed phase. It just feels weird to have somebody ask me for 1/3 before even starting digging.
Payment schedule?
- Thread starter Owner/Builder
- Start date
Stoopalini
Gold Supporter
- Jun 8, 2020
- 590
- Pool Size
- 14060
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
My PB is a very large builder (largest in Texas), and here is our schedule:
Total cost: $67,651
Total cost: $67,651
- 40% due upon completion of excavation = $27,060.40
- 30% due upon completion of gunite = $20,295.30
- 20% due upon completion of deck pour = $13,530.20
- 10% due just prior to plaster installation = $6,765.10
Apsuhead
Bronze Supporter
- Apr 27, 2020
- 501
- Pool Size
- 19250
- Surface
- Fiberglass
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Hayward Aqua Rite (T-9)
My fiberglass pool contract has ...
50% due at completion of excavation/setting pool
25% due at completion of concrete deck
25% due at job completion
50% due at completion of excavation/setting pool
25% due at completion of concrete deck
25% due at job completion
I would strongly advise against making the last payment on any construction work before it's completed.
- Jun 26, 2017
- 234
- Pool Size
- 14750
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- CircuPool Edge-40
Here is our schedule
10% Down 5363.70
25% Excavate 13409.25
43% Gunite 23063.91
15% Deck 8045.55
5% Plaster 2681.85
2% Start Up 1072.72
10% Down 5363.70
25% Excavate 13409.25
43% Gunite 23063.91
15% Deck 8045.55
5% Plaster 2681.85
2% Start Up 1072.72
kazamali
Well-known member
Adding a data point:
Austin TX (large PB company -- Note that everything is AFTER the action performed):
Excavation - 40%
Gunite - 30%
Decking - 20%
Plaster - 10%
During contract negotiation we were trying to have the last payment AFTER filling the pool, but were told that they just didn't do that. Don't know if that's consistent with other folks. Luckily we really didn't have a major issue, but it was a PAIN to get a couple of minor things fixed after the money was all sent.
Austin TX (large PB company -- Note that everything is AFTER the action performed):
Excavation - 40%
Gunite - 30%
Decking - 20%
Plaster - 10%
During contract negotiation we were trying to have the last payment AFTER filling the pool, but were told that they just didn't do that. Don't know if that's consistent with other folks. Luckily we really didn't have a major issue, but it was a PAIN to get a couple of minor things fixed after the money was all sent.
- Nov 12, 2017
- 11,841
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
In CA it is illegal for a contractor to ask for more than a 10% deposit (1/3 before construction starts sure sounds like a deposit to me). I don't know about NV, or if there is some exception for pool construction, but 10% is the most I'd ever pay up front. And NO WAY would I pay the final installment before I had the signed permit final in my hand, along with all the subcontractors' lien releases, AND the pool was 100% complete to my 100% satisfaction. If that was a deal breaker for the contractor, then that would be a deal breaker for me.
Some of these guys are constantly on the hook. Over-extended. A 1/3 advance without any sort of material delivery would be a red flag to me that he's using my money to pay vendors from his previous job (or his bad habits). And if that's the case, that means he'll likely be insolvent during your entire build, and pay off the subs on your job with the downpayment he extorts from his next build. It's just a bad business model, even when things are going well. If something comes apart on your job, then it's really bad. He might have to go off to the next job, to procure more money out of the next client, in order to make right costly redos on your job...
He should be constantly "behind" on your job: only collecting money from you for work that has already been completed on your job.
Some of these guys are constantly on the hook. Over-extended. A 1/3 advance without any sort of material delivery would be a red flag to me that he's using my money to pay vendors from his previous job (or his bad habits). And if that's the case, that means he'll likely be insolvent during your entire build, and pay off the subs on your job with the downpayment he extorts from his next build. It's just a bad business model, even when things are going well. If something comes apart on your job, then it's really bad. He might have to go off to the next job, to procure more money out of the next client, in order to make right costly redos on your job...
He should be constantly "behind" on your job: only collecting money from you for work that has already been completed on your job.
Paying in full before I saw and approved the plaster job, or even knew if the pool held water yet would be totally unacceptable to me.
Our pool builders (well known custom builder in these parts) contract stated that the final 5% was due on customer sign off. The sign off takes place after completion and a 15 day punch list period. After seeing that, I knew i had the right guy.
Our pool builders (well known custom builder in these parts) contract stated that the final 5% was due on customer sign off. The sign off takes place after completion and a 15 day punch list period. After seeing that, I knew i had the right guy.
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I look at it as that any business demanding payment prior to completion is doing that based on experience. That means they've probably experienced people who were so unhappy with the work that they refused to pay until it was fixed, and the business's "solution" wasn't to improve their standards but to try and collect the money before customers could use it as leverage to have the job done right. That's just how I personally would interpret a policy of collecting payment prior to completion.
Stoopalini
Gold Supporter
- Jun 8, 2020
- 590
- Pool Size
- 14060
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
Sure, I don't think anyone would advise anything differently. Although this builder is very reputable and non-negotiable on this point. I'm good with it, as I know several friends with pools from these guys, and they're a large corporation with a great network to deal with issues. I'm honestly not worried at all.
If it were a small operation, I would have felt differently.
Sounds like you're using the same builder as I am. Our experience has been great thus far, no issues and moving along quicker than we expected. Although where I live, there are no permits or HOAs to deal with ...
kazamali
Well-known member
That's good to hear. IMHO it's all about the Super running the job.
Stoopalini
Gold Supporter
- Jun 8, 2020
- 590
- Pool Size
- 14060
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
Definitely! Our construction manager has been really great, definitely exceeding my expectations; and genuinely a nice guy too!
My pool contract states the final draw is due upon "pool fill & start up". I took that to mean the COMPLETION of the pool. My pool was filled and the filter was started up today, HOWEVER they still haven't installed the LED color changing pool light of the two deck jets or the handrail, nor has the Aqualink Automaton System been started. All of these things amount to a lot of money... thousands of dollars... and they want final payment. That doesn't sit well in my gut. Start up should mean the pool is completed. Mine is not. Is this common practice? They're telling me those little things will be dealt with at "punch out"... what does that even mean? I 've never paid for anything in full before I've received the product! Help! Should I fight this & withhold a reasonable amount to cover what has not yet been delivered or pay the final amount?
Attachments
- Nov 12, 2017
- 11,841
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
You most definitely should not give the builder all of the money, and technically you don't have to pay any of the final amount just yet. I can only offer you how this would work in California, so you may have to do a little research to see how much of this applies in FL.
"Pool fill" is reasonably unambiguous. But "start up" is not, not at all. That could mean just about anything. In general, the burden of making a contract clear lies with the author, or rather the "supplier" of the contract, and in this case that is your builder. It also falls to him because he is the "professional party" and should have the experience and qualifications to supply a proper contract, something consumers don't typically know how to do. In CA, the format and contents of a construction contract is very strictly regulated, and it is the contractors lawful duty to make sure his contract is legal and "up to snuff" in all areas. If it is not reasonably clear to you what "start up" means, then that is his fault.
"Start up" could mean when the pump starts up, or it could also mean when the "start up" procedure is completed, which some would define as the actual chemical start up process, which could conceivably take a day, a week, or a month. Or it could mean just about anything else. I followed the startup procedure as defined by the National Plasters Council, which is aptly named "Swimming Pool Start-Up Procedures", which took 28 days according to their guide (here and here). It's not unreasonable to use their definition of start up, as they have been around a very long time, as have their start-up procedures. They are well known and could be considered an industry standard.
The point being, the contractual term "start up" was not properly defined in the contract, and your builder doesn't have any more rights to defining it now than you do. So you are at an impasse, and so the logical solution, at least the first to try, is to negotiate.
Explain your position, you could even state that you assumed that term meant the completion of the chemical start up process (which is what it should mean, IMO), and then make him an offer, or wait until he does first, and then counter with whatever you can live with. One way to go would be to pencil out the monetary value of the outstanding work and materials, and subtract that from the amount he is seeking. Pay him the balance, and withhold the rest until all the outstanding work is done to your satisfaction. This is reasonable, and fair, and puts no undue financial burden on either of you. Any judge would also find that reasonable. If he squawks, then offer to settle the matter in court, and see how he likes that idea.
If he is owed more than the remaining work, then you are holding the cards. He could retaliate, and drag things out, or take you up on your offer to go to court, or short you in some way (like lessening the quality of the outstanding labor or materials), etc, so this move is not without risk. But, IMO, that risk is less than the risk of handing a contractor final payment before the work is done, because everything I just listed, or worse, could happen anyway.
As a sidebar, I would also insist the the pool pass final inspection (if there is a permit) and that all subcontractors furnish you a lien release for the work they each performed. Neglecting to tie up those loose ends can come back to bite you, both in terms of the build, and the money you might owe someone.
Be fair, but be firm. Resist any sort of emotional expressions. Stay calm, don't be confrontational. State the facts. State your proposal. Make it clear that you want the pool completed, and that you sincerely want him to get paid in full as soon as possible, as soon as the work is done. No reasonable person could fault that. Leave the rest to him. Do it in writing if you can. Have a witness present if you can't (not a relative or spouse). Follow up any in-person discussion(s) with an email that outlines everything that was said and agreed to. Good luck.
"Pool fill" is reasonably unambiguous. But "start up" is not, not at all. That could mean just about anything. In general, the burden of making a contract clear lies with the author, or rather the "supplier" of the contract, and in this case that is your builder. It also falls to him because he is the "professional party" and should have the experience and qualifications to supply a proper contract, something consumers don't typically know how to do. In CA, the format and contents of a construction contract is very strictly regulated, and it is the contractors lawful duty to make sure his contract is legal and "up to snuff" in all areas. If it is not reasonably clear to you what "start up" means, then that is his fault.
"Start up" could mean when the pump starts up, or it could also mean when the "start up" procedure is completed, which some would define as the actual chemical start up process, which could conceivably take a day, a week, or a month. Or it could mean just about anything else. I followed the startup procedure as defined by the National Plasters Council, which is aptly named "Swimming Pool Start-Up Procedures", which took 28 days according to their guide (here and here). It's not unreasonable to use their definition of start up, as they have been around a very long time, as have their start-up procedures. They are well known and could be considered an industry standard.
The point being, the contractual term "start up" was not properly defined in the contract, and your builder doesn't have any more rights to defining it now than you do. So you are at an impasse, and so the logical solution, at least the first to try, is to negotiate.
Explain your position, you could even state that you assumed that term meant the completion of the chemical start up process (which is what it should mean, IMO), and then make him an offer, or wait until he does first, and then counter with whatever you can live with. One way to go would be to pencil out the monetary value of the outstanding work and materials, and subtract that from the amount he is seeking. Pay him the balance, and withhold the rest until all the outstanding work is done to your satisfaction. This is reasonable, and fair, and puts no undue financial burden on either of you. Any judge would also find that reasonable. If he squawks, then offer to settle the matter in court, and see how he likes that idea.
If he is owed more than the remaining work, then you are holding the cards. He could retaliate, and drag things out, or take you up on your offer to go to court, or short you in some way (like lessening the quality of the outstanding labor or materials), etc, so this move is not without risk. But, IMO, that risk is less than the risk of handing a contractor final payment before the work is done, because everything I just listed, or worse, could happen anyway.
As a sidebar, I would also insist the the pool pass final inspection (if there is a permit) and that all subcontractors furnish you a lien release for the work they each performed. Neglecting to tie up those loose ends can come back to bite you, both in terms of the build, and the money you might owe someone.
Be fair, but be firm. Resist any sort of emotional expressions. Stay calm, don't be confrontational. State the facts. State your proposal. Make it clear that you want the pool completed, and that you sincerely want him to get paid in full as soon as possible, as soon as the work is done. No reasonable person could fault that. Leave the rest to him. Do it in writing if you can. Have a witness present if you can't (not a relative or spouse). Follow up any in-person discussion(s) with an email that outlines everything that was said and agreed to. Good luck.
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- Nov 12, 2017
- 11,841
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
"Punch out" can be taken to mean: upon completion of the punch list. I think that is what he is referring to.
Typically a big construction project has some, or a lot, of minor unfinished details towards the end. A punch list is created, in essence a to-do list, so that everyone is on the same page regarding what is left to be accomplished. This list is shared with the owner, the builder and any subs that would be involved, so that everyone knows what is to be done. The punch list should include the bit about the permit final, and the lien releases. It should also contain any "quality" issues you might reasonably have, for example: if a chunk of grout fell out, or a tile is out of place, or the finish has a stain, etc. The punch list can be created or edited by you, or the builder, typically both have a hand in it.
It is not reasonable for a contractor to ask to be paid in full before the punch list is 100% complete.
Typically a big construction project has some, or a lot, of minor unfinished details towards the end. A punch list is created, in essence a to-do list, so that everyone is on the same page regarding what is left to be accomplished. This list is shared with the owner, the builder and any subs that would be involved, so that everyone knows what is to be done. The punch list should include the bit about the permit final, and the lien releases. It should also contain any "quality" issues you might reasonably have, for example: if a chunk of grout fell out, or a tile is out of place, or the finish has a stain, etc. The punch list can be created or edited by you, or the builder, typically both have a hand in it.
It is not reasonable for a contractor to ask to be paid in full before the punch list is 100% complete.
Lake Placid
In The Industry
- May 27, 2021
- 616
- Pool Size
- 17000
- Surface
- Fiberglass
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
Convenietly the PB refers to a customary term such as punch list but has forgotten or wants to ignore the customary term that accompanies it called retainage.
- Nov 12, 2017
- 11,841
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
This sounds like something I could guess the meaning of, but please explain so I know for sure.
Lake Placid
In The Industry
- May 27, 2021
- 616
- Pool Size
- 17000
- Surface
- Fiberglass
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
In the construction contracts I’ve dealt with, the standard is an agreeable retention held back until final completion…all punch items are completed, signed off by owner, lien releases etc etc. Every standard AIA contract I’ve been involved with has been 5% of total cost reserved for retention.
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- Nov 12, 2017
- 11,841
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
Right. The OP's contractor probably got stiffed one too many times, so no longer leaves the final payment to chance. That's not an excuse not to have a reasonable retention in the contract, but a possible reason. The problem is, like with all contracts between consumer and contractor, the consumer often doesn't have the experience to know what should and shouldn't be in a contract, and the builder, over the years, modifies his contract to benefit himself. CA is better than most States in that it is very pro-consumer and has laws in place that minimize this issue. Other States, not so much.
Fingers crossed that the OP and his contractor will both be reasonable and work this out. They could probably wrap up the punch list in a day or two, and everyone can part happy.
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