No ground at 240v pool pump, only neutral

[Jnook1]

We bought a house a few years ago and I recently had to replace the pool pump. This is an old 1950s inground fiberglass pool, so things are dated. There’s no bonding but the pump was on a 20amp GFCI breaker which made me feel good.

As I replaced the pump (also is a 240v salt water generator by the pool pump there) I checked the breaker wiring. Photo attached, there’s only 3 wires going to the pump/salt generator but as you can see it’s two power lines and a neutral, no ground. Colors are off since it’s red white and green. My understanding for GFCI breakers is a load neutral isn’t necessary, just two hot/power and a ground. Why is there a neutral run instead of a ground? Why does this work? It looks like it’s been this way for many years. Should I simply swap the load neutral to the ground bar instead to make it “right”?

Just want to be sure I’m doing what’s safe for the family, it’s hard to imagine this was wired wrong for so long but I think it’s wrong, with my limited electrical knowledge…

Thanks for the help!!

 

[Jnook1]

*Red white and green wires run to pump (not black)

 

[ajw22]

Show us the wire connections on the pump side.

You should wrap black electrical tape around both ends of the white wire to indicate it is a hot wire and not a neutral wire.

Use electrical tape of the proper color wrapped around any wires that are non-standard colors for safety.

 

[JamesW]

The center wire is usually the neutral.

So, it looks like the ground wire is connected to the breaker neutral, which is incorrect.

The red and white are connected to the hot terminals of the breaker to give you 240 at the pump.

Based on what I can see, I would strongly recommend that you have a qualified electrician check this out to make sure that it is safe and code compliant.

Whoever did the work was incompetent and everything needs to be checked for safety.

 

[Jnook1]

Thanks guys. Correct, 100% the pump’s ground connection is wired to the neutral load at present. At the breaker, the white and red are connected to the hots, the green is connected to load neutral (middle position) on the GFCI- which is running to the pump ground.

I was reading and I guess this works (it runs) because technically the neutral is a ground at the main panel. But it’s not proper/safe as the neutral has return current and if there’s a fault it’s bad. Though I didn’t underdrsnd why it’s bad, I’m sure there’s excellent reason.

It seems that load neutral green line should just be moved to the grounding bar, right?

 

[ajw22]

It seems that load neutral green line should just be moved to the grounding bar, right?

We cannot see that the grounding bar and neutral bar are properly done in your panel.

Without understanding the entire wiring picture we cannot say if changing the wiring will make it better or worse.

Have an electrician look at what you have .

 

[JamesW]

It looks like there is no main EGC (Equipment Grounding Conductor aka ground wire).

A licensed electrician is definitely needed to review and remediate as needed.

 

[JamesW]

You need to have a properly sized ground wire (EGC) from the main panel to the subpanel.

Grounds and neutrals have to be separated at a subpanel.

Your grounds and neutrals are interconnected, which will cause the grounds to carry neutral current.

This is dangerous and needs to be fixed as soon as possible.

What does the 40 amp breaker on the lower left go to?

 

[ajw22]

When this is the only panel in a structure and there is no means to shut off the panel outside the neutrals and grounds can be mixed on the same bar.

It looks like that panel is designed to be a main panel where the equipment grounding conductor and neutral are put into different holes of a shared neutral/ground bus bar.

When that panel is used as a subpanel a separate grounding bar needs to be installed in the panel and neutrals and grounds need to be separated.

 

[JamesW]

It looks like it has a ground bar, but I don't see a main ground wire from the main panel.

 

[Jnook1]

This subpanel is grounded guys. Here’s a shot the bare ground wire which is anchored to the box, looks to be 8awg stranded to my eyes which should be appropriate for a 60amp panel, attached a photo. The neutral bar is separate from the panel and the ground bar. Agree and will have an electrician come look at it next year. Looks to me that the neutral load on that breaker just needs to be slotted into the ground bar.

Someone else asked about the 40amp breaker. That feeds a freestanding hot tub.

 

[JamesW]

At the end of the day, you are the one who has to determine if you are comfortable with the quality of the work.

When we see sketchy work done, all we can do is recommend a full review by a qualified electrician to make sure that it is safe.

There is only so much we can do based on pictures.

 

[Jnook1]

I hear you, appreciate all the thoughts. To me the bottom line is the GFCI question and it’s clearly wired wrong people seem to agree -since there’s no ground. Mixing neutrals and grounds in a subpanel to 240v equipment is a no. That’s why they have separate isolated bars.