Newbie Questions--Seeking affirmation/guidance

[tessv]

First of all, what a phenomenal resource all of you are!!! I have blown my morning trying to read as much as I can before posting, lol, but am mostly wanting to see if I'm thinking about all of this correctly. . . I hope all of the helpful info is indeed in my signature--if not, please let me know!!!

Okay--here's the deal. . . We've struggled to maintain chlorine all year--frequent drops to zero until last week when we finally stabilized. We've been working with our pool store and have added LOADS of dichlor & trichlor (this is relevant to our CYA); Have a Jandy SWG that has been running at 100% for about 3 weeks.

I JUST received my TF-100 kit, and tested this morning, and again just now. (omigosh. . . I think it's fun!, lol)

Anyhow--we're planning to have about 30 people here on the 4th, and I'm wanting to make sure the water is "pristine," HA! (Not sure we'd pass the "dime by the main drain" test right now).

To me, it looks a little cloudy--I've attached a couple of pics. One (a) is the full length where you can see the tanning ledge/benches; the other (b) is taken at the drop off to the cannonball well--can kinda see those steps and if you look closely, the main drain near the top of the shot. (Pool color is French Grey).

(a)
(b)

Numbers at 8:00 and again at 12:30

	8:00	12:30
FC	15	10
CC	2	0.5
TC	17	10.5
CH	375	*
TA	250	*
CYA	100	100 (retested to validate)
pH	7.2	7.2
CSI	.31	.34

So, I'm thinking that we're looking pretty good, but I'm confused about the CC being at 2 this morning and at 0.5 now???!!! We had a good rain yesterday (pool has an autocover), and that brought the frogs out. . . Fished about 10 out of the skimmers this morning--maybe that was the organic matter??? Initially, I was all set to embrace a SLAM, but I dunno if it's necessary????

ALSO, right now, I don't have any trichlor in the baskets (really wanna get away from that, since our CYA is already kinda high (think it will come down in time with evaporation loss & water replacement. . .).

Here's my initial plan--can someone confirm if I'm thinking about this appropriately?
1. Brush all surfaces, Hook up the "big vac" and thoroughly vacuum the whole shebang with that, then run the Dolphin.
2. Turn on all the "bling" and let the sheers, laminars and bubblers aerate the pool to bring pH up closer to 7.5
3. Add liquid bleach to maintain FC at closer to 13 through Monday. . .

Is that correct???? Pool store says just keep 2 sticks in each basket and fervently discourages use of bleach. . . so I'm nervous, lol. Also, would you toss a couple pounds of dichlor in the pool the morning of the party???? I just wanna get it right, lol! Thanks, all!

 

[Mr Bruce]

Congrats on the best first post ever. Seriously. Welcome.

If you lost 5ppm in 4 hours and the water was even a little cloudy, I would SLAM. CC goes away in the sun (UV) so that is perfectly normal.

Before that you need to replace a lot of water though. 100 CYA is high, it might be higher. Nearly impossible to manage at that level.

Every bit of solid chlorine you add to that pool is going to make CYA worse. edit I know you weren't planning to, just confirming that the pool $tore is a bad place to get advice or chemicals.

edit 2 my bad, missed the SWG bit.

 

[YippeeSkippy]

Oh lordie.... STAY OUTTA THAT POOL STORE!!! They are leading your down the wrong path and causing you problems.

(Oh yeah- Welcome to TFP! You've come to the right place to have clear healthy water, that doesn't cost you and arm and a leg!)

You have a SWG, yet you're adding massive amounts of dichlor/trichlor? WHY? All that is doing for you is raising your CYA level to unmanageable levels and causing your FC requirements to go up along with that CYA. Stop using all granular and puck products. Start using plain old household 8.25% bleach (which doesn't contain any extra calcium or CYA along with it) if you need to bump up your FC.

Base on your comments about the SWG running at 100% and the lack of FC, it would appear you have something growing in that water that is causing the cloudiness and FC loss. That means you need to clean up your water with a SLAM procedure. Directions here--> SLAM Process

But first, take equal parts tap water and pool water and mix. Then re-test your CYA level using this mixture as your pool water part. Double the results for a more accurate CYA level. It could be far higher than 100, but the tester tops out there so we have to work around that.

Consider a partial drain and refill to lower your CYA. If you did it today you'd be ready by Monday it would make a SLAM procedure go easier on you, perhaps faster.

Your pictures don't look too horrible at all... it could be a fast SLAM.

Don't let your pH go any lower- low pH water (caused by your Dichlor/Trichlor use probably) can mess with your heater and end badly. Your TA is pretty high, so its a bit of a confusing picture. We can figure that out later, 'k?

Holler back with any more questions

Yippee

 

[tessv]

BRUCE!!!! (I bet you get that all the time. . .)

Thanks for such a swift chiming in!!! Your explanation of CC going away in the sun was really helpful--I didn't know that!

So, you would slam before Monday?? Will it be finished??? I'm REALLY NERVOUS to start that because, well--what if the chlorine is uncomfortably high? Or the water hits the "worse before better" stage RIGHT as people are trying to enjoy it???? EEEEEEEK! Lol. . . Seriously, though. . . isn't now a bad time to start that process? (Also, rain predicted for parts of the next three days/evenings. . . we keep the pool covered during rain & at night--not sure I will be able to keep up if there's water on the cover that needs pumped off before it can be opened. . . )

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YIPPEEEE!!!! Thank YOU, too. . . Okay--gonna do that half/half test. . . will brb. . .

 

[pooldv]

If there is algae growing now and you don't SLAM then it could be nice and green by Monday. SLAMing will make it better not worse.

And it is safe to swim when
FC is above minimum and up to shock level for your CYA, [FC/CYA][/FC/CYA]
PH is between 7.2 and 7.8
and the water is clear

 

[tessv]

Hey, Yippee! I want to address what you were saying--the pool store. . .ugh, I know. . . I am astonished at what I've spent in chems already this season! We've gone through about 100lbs of dichlor (we were using that solely to supplement the SWG initially). Here's how our path has gone. . . Build happened last year--we were supposed to open last year around Memorial Day, but the Rain Gods had other plans and the project was really slowed through May. Filled the pool last year on the 4th. . . No problems at all. (Granted, we didn't have a CLUE what we were doing, lol). Our Pool Builder came out a couple times per week from then until when we closed in early November (He's AWESOME!!!). He's from a town down the road and so their company policy is to turn over pool care to the local pool store post-build because the distance is just prohibitive. The pool store & builder closed the pool together.

Pool store opened us April 29, water was BEAUTIFUL. Sparkly, CLEAR, wonderful. . . We ran the water WARM. . . (Like 95 degrees warm) through May. That's when I really started lurking around here because we took weekly samples to the pool store and then followed their directions. I was testing daily with strips, too. At that point, we consistently ran right at a TC & FC of around 3. . . Pool store consistently said that's too low. . . So we'd Add and add and add dichlor. Around Memorial day, we began noticing ALOT of calcium flakes shooting out of the returns. ALOT. Like--you could scoop it off the bottom to make a very large snowball. At the same time, our saline was reading REALLY low both at the machine and in the store--we had gotten down to like 2%. This inspired panic, lol, and major worry that we had a leak somewhere because how else could we be creating such a significant dilution in such a big pool. Shortly after that, maybe 3 weeks ago, we started bottoming out on our TC & FC--readings of zero. Added about 6 lbs per day of dichlor, and barely squeaked back up to 3. Bottomed again on a pool store day, Again with the dichlor--hit hard with about 15 lbs. . . 4 days later (which takes us to early last week it bottomed to zero again (this is both on my test strips and in the store). . . SO, at that point we dumped a 25lb bucket and began adding tricolor sticks to the skimmer baskets--pool store said 4 in each; I did 2. I've been watching TC/FC and haven't added any sticks since Monday. Throughout all of this, CYA has looked pretty good-stayed between 30-50. Noticed some creep upwards on the color yesterday, and today the strip said 100, as did my new "real" test. . . (This morning, I think I've learned that the CYA creep is often delayed a week???)

So, that's how we got here. . .

Your question-"You have a SWG, yet you're adding massive amounts of dichlor/trichlor? WHY?" THAT'S WHAT WE WANTED TO KNOW, TOO, LOL!!!! The short answer though, is Because we weren't getting any measurable chlorine. . . Initially, we wondered if the SWG was even working--but pool builder was out & tested the water coming directly from it by loosening that thingy--PLENTY of chlorine coming from it. . . So the theory was that because this pool is big (I guess) and pretty much full sun all day and it was hotter than hades during that time (several days over 100), maybe it was just burning up that quickly???? **What IS a reasonable expectation from that salt cell??????**

(I should also add that when we were exploring the idea of a leak, the bucket evaporation test suggested that we were really losing that much to evaporation. . . ). . .

Right now, we leave that pool cover open from about 6 a.m. until we go in for the night between 9 & 11, unless it rains. . . Do we REALLY need to leave it open all day???? Couldn't that be contributing to the problem???

BACK TO THE IMMEDIATE ISSUES:
Okay. . . I'm back. . . Did the half/half test and got about 62--so CYA=124. . .
PARTIAL DRAIN???? You're scaring me! When you say "partial"?????? LOL. . . HOW????? Via backwash????

About the TA--Yep. It's high. . .I like the "address that later" piece.

Would you (or any of you generous spirits willing to share your wisdom) be able/willing to break down for me what I need to do to be in good shape for Monday? Step by step. Like for a 4th grader, lol. . .

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME!!!!!!

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Thanks, Pooldv! Did you see the pics? Do you think that's "Clear"? (my sense is that it isn't awful, but it could be better. . ??)

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Okay--I'm hearing consensus to SHOCK NOW. SO--by pool math, shock level would be 39, Mustard would by 54. Which target am I aiming for?

 

[tessv]

I'm off to Lowe's or Walmart or Sams--in search of around 42 gallons of 8.5% bleach (no additives). If I did my math right, I should need about 14 gallons to get to that shock level of 39--and if I pick up 42 gallons, that oughtta get me through three rounds, if necessary. Right???

WISH ME LUCK!!!

@YippeeSkippy, @Mr Bruce, and @pooldv-- thank you three so much! Fingers crossed. . .

 

[YippeeSkippy]

Trying to SLAM a pool that has CYA of 124 is just not realistic.

Can you backwash out about 1/2 (no more!) or to play it safer, drain 1/3 and refill, then drain 1/3. What you don't want to do is risk floating the pool by draining too much. The pool depends on the weight of that water to hold it down in the ground so smaller drains are safer, but slower. But that would bring your CYA down to a workable level. Then get some fresh water in there as quick as possible so you can move on...

Also, if you're expecting rain go ahead and leave your autocover open and collect that water. Then if you have to drain it down it helps dilute that CYA a bit too.

Is your SWG undersized for your pool, I wonder? Were you testing the salt level? You need the Taylor K-1766 salt level test for accuracy.

Have you read this: ABCs of Pool Water Chemistry

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OH darn... yes, I just researched your SWG. Its way undersized for your massive pool. I'm sorry

We recommend using SWGs that are 1.5-3x the size of the pool so as to not work it to death. You need a SWG that services about 60K.

 

[YippeeSkippy]

As you deciding what to do, add 2 gallons of bleach in your water each day and brush religiously to disrupt the algae and get it into circulation. Go buy up a mess of bleach or liquid chlorine (Costco, Walmart etc are good sources but check the date codes for freshest possible product).

 

[tessv]

@YippeeSkippy, Yes--that was one of my very first reads! Have it printed and sheet protected in my "pool binder." The info about FC is what kept me vigilant in the early parts of this season, and kept me running into the pool store! I feel like I "get" it, but I am by NO MEANS "proficient," lol. . . The problems we've had are what jolted me from my fantasy of "it'll all be okay if I do what people tell me to do," to "PUT YOUR BIG GIRL PANTIES ON and LEARN TO DO THIS YOURSELF!!!!" I know enough to be bugged by the fact that it isn't as "right" as it could be, but not enough to feel confident about solving the problem, if that makes sense. . .


**Are you saying it isn't realistic because it will be difficult/impractical to get & sustain the free chlorine at those levels?

**Would a more conservative drain of 25% have any meaningful positive effect?

**How assertive can I be with the builder that the selected salt cell is inadequate and that we would like it to be replaced for the difference in cost of the models? Should we get the Jandy rep involved?

This may be an obvious question, but why are the pool stores so "anti" liquid chlorine? Is it as simple as dichlor/trichlor messed everything up and therefore force people into the store to buy more product--hence, their bread & butter, or is there some other possible disadvantage? I ask, because this pool store is really good about saying, "don't buy our stuff, just go by Baking Soda" for those types of issues, so it seems like they would be as willing to do that when referencing chlorine, too????

 

[pooldv]

No, I did not look at the pics. I prefer not to click out of the site to view pics because it is often difficult to navigate through other sites to view pics and takes too much time to figure it out. You can host pics on photobucket, copy the IMG code to the right of the pic, paste it in the post and it will embed in the thread and everyone can view the pic here.

 

[YippeeSkippy]

@YippeeSkippy, Yes--that was one of my very first reads! Have it printed and sheet protected in my "pool binder." The info about FC is what kept me vigilant in the early parts of this season, and kept me running into the pool store! I feel like I "get" it, but I am by NO MEANS "proficient," lol. . . The problems we've had are what jolted me from my fantasy of "it'll all be okay if I do what people tell me to do," to "PUT YOUR BIG GIRL PANTIES ON and LEARN TO DO THIS YOURSELF!!!!" I know enough to be bugged by the fact that it isn't as "right" as it could be, but not enough to feel confident about solving the problem, if that makes sense. . .
A girl after my own heart! My husband Skippy :batman: is good with the mechanics but I'm the chemistry queen around my house

**Are you saying it isn't realistic because it will be difficult/impractical to get & sustain the free chlorine at those levels?
Yeah, that would be a LOT of bleach. And remember its not a one time administration.... it can be many times a day at first. The more often you retest and redose back up to your SLAM level the faster it goes.

**Would a more conservative drain of 25% have any meaningful positive effect?
Well, not as much as 25% done twice

**How assertive can I be with the builder that the selected salt cell is inadequate and that we would like it to be replaced for the difference in cost of the models? Should we get the Jandy rep involved?

Pool Builders know construction, but often are pretty clueless on continual chemistry. It just isn't their forte. I don't know if Jandy offers a larger SWG or not?

This may be an obvious question, but why are the pool stores so "anti" liquid chlorine? Is it as simple as dichlor/trichlor messed everything up and therefore force people into the store to buy more product--hence, their bread & butter, or is there some other possible disadvantage? I ask, because this pool store is really good about saying, "don't buy our stuff, just go by Baking Soda" for those types of issues, so it seems like they would be as willing to do that when referencing chlorine, too????

Because they're clueless too? They are often seasonal employees or get their entire education on pool chemistry from pool chemical sales reps. Or perhaps they know you can get it elsewhere if you knew it was just "bleach" but they can sell you these fantabulous granular products that make so many promises..... yet rarely do they come true.

 

[YippeeSkippy]

Oh please- don't buy the bleach at Lowes (and I hate to say that since we own a mess of Lowes stock but) they store it outside in the garden center and it loses its potency from sun and heat.

Go to Walmart (which I also hate to say, lol) or Costco/Sam'sCLub/BJ's to get the freshest you can find. Check out the pool section at Wallyworld to price out the 10% liquid chlorine also against the price of the 8.25% bleach.

Call local pool stores and ask if they sell liquid chlorine in carboys and for how much? Compare your prices. You're gonna go thru a few bathtub fulls...

 

[pooldv]

I buy my bleach at the grocery store, store brand concentrated bleach, unscented.

 

[tessv]

No, I did not look at the pics. I prefer not to click out of the site to view pics because it is often difficult to navigate through other sites to view pics and takes too much time to figure it out. You can host pics on photobucket, copy the IMG code to the right of the pic, paste it in the post and it will embed in the thread and everyone can view the pic here.

Thanks for this suggestion--I've never used photobucket, pretty slick!

 

[tessv]

Alright, guys. . .
1. I reran pool math to account for the more accurate CYA of 120, and based on those calculations, my target shock FC is 47.
2. I picked up 48 121 oz bottles o 8.3% Chlorox from Sam's (was the easiest route--in the future, I will be sure to price the dollar & grocery stores, too). 3. *Didn't worry about pH coming down, since it tested at 7.2 (aware that this may actually be a high reading because my FC to start was at 10)
4. Added 14 bottles of Chlorox at 6:45p
5. Brushed the pool
5. Tested the water at 9:45, FC was right at 49.
6. Closed the pool cover for the night
7. Scoured the forums some more and found my inspiration--folks with UBER HIGH cya, 120 or higher who have successfully completed a SLAM without a partial drain.
8. Ordered FAS-DPD large refill kit, since I'm going to be using a lot this weekend!


Plan for each day until I pass the 3 pronged test:
6:00 Open Pool, test/record FC; note amount lost over night; Brush pool; replenish Chlorine to shock level; note Filter Pressure

10:00 Test. Adjust

12:00 Test. Adjust. Take photo for comparative value. Vacuum

3:00 Test. Adjust

9:00 Test. adjust

**One question that I had is, are there recommendations for the SPEED at which the pump is running? Should it be set to nearly it's highest setting throughout the SLAM?

 

[tessv]

6:00 update--overnight loss of 9 (FC=40). Added 4 bottles of Chlorox. Pump speed=2750, ran at max (3450) for an hour then bumped back down to 2750. Brushed pool, noted dying/dead algae (brown "clouds" as I brushed... Filter reads 12... Yay! Think it's working!!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Mr Bruce]

I read back through the thread and didn't see it. Can you tell us why you are opposed to draining? It will make life so much easier for you

 

[pooldv]

Alright! That is a good plan. You should make some quick progress on that.

 

[tessv]

@Mr Bruce--The reason we're avoiding that is because we have some drainage concerns with our house/sump runoff right now that are in the middle of being repaired--we want to avoid putting more water into the soil while that work is being completed. . . We aren't opposed in the big picture, but in the immediate, it's a less than ideal prospect. . . Hopefully that work will be completed by the end of next week, and then we can revisit the draining. . .