New to TFP method but I'm still in the process of severing pool store ties

[Musashi]

Hello everyone,

We've owned our Phoenix AZ pool since it was first built in 2007. Yet it's just now that we're coming to realize the TFP philosophy benefits vs pool store failure logic. So we recently did a full drain & refill to start fresh but we were still under the guidance of a newer pool store. Thankfully, they are more in line with TFP overall but they still had us buying the latest & greatest in pool chemicals.

Upon refilling the pool:
- We added 14 lbs of Ultima Endure Water Conditioner (with sodium tetraborate/borates) per the pool store recommendations (we have a 12k gal pool)
- We also recently sunk cost into 35lbs bucket of Poolife's NST Cal-Hypo Tablets for the skimmer instead of using Tri-Chlor tabs in a floater to maintain chlorine levels

Unfortunately, this was before we found TFP forum & website. We are continuing to make the mental adjustments needed to change as we gain more TFP knowledge.

The main challenge right now is transitioning from Di-chlor & Tri-chlor to only using liquid chlorine as the main source of sanitizing. Our CYA is around 40 ppm so this is pretty good. And, the use of Poolife's NST Cal-Hypo Tablets??? Well, it's hard not to use them since they're also used in commercial & public pool settings in lieu of Tri-chlor tabs. Regardless if I used the Cal-Hypo tabs or not our refill water would drive up our CH in the pool to above 700-800 ppm in just over a few years. So high CH is inevitable.

Right now I'm focusing on getting the alkalinity and PH balanced just right for my particular pool. I think I've been experiencing the PH bounce. With the addition of the Taylor test kit, it has helped me dial things in. Trusting my Taylor test kit over the pool store tests is also quite challenging.

I appreciate this entire website and the mission it serves. Thank you.

 

[domct203]

Welcome to the forum!

Your Taylor kit, is it the K2006 that contains a FAS/DPD chlorine test?

I still do not for the life of me understand why any pool $tore would push Cal-Hypo in an area with hard water...... they are not doing you any favors that's for sure.

Don't get too hung up on TA, pH is the more important value.

Post up a set of test results and we will be glad to offer up some advice! Be sure to post them as:
FC
CC
pH
TA
CH
CYA

Nice to have you here.

 

[tim5055]

Welcome to TFP!!

Unfortunately, as much as you like them the new pool store has done you no favors. Adding borates to a pool is one of the last things you do, not the first. Putting it simply, borates kind of lock in the TA/pH. You are going to need additional acid to overcome the effects of the borates to move th pH.

It is our group opinion here that unless you run your pump 24/7 then any chlorine source should never be applied by placing it in the skimmer. When the pump stops it creates a micro-environment in the skimmer body of highly acidic water that over time can make the plastic skimmer body brittle. We have seen folks post pictures here of skimmers that fell apart after long term use as a chlorine introduction point. Additionally when the pump comes on that body of acidic water is drawn through the plumbing where it can slowly damage seals and "O" rings in your pump/filter system. It is also my understnading (I've never used them) that CalHypo tablets have a very different speed (faster) at which they erode/dissolve and because of this there are special CalHypo feeders that should be used.

While I agree that in most pools in the S/W rising CH is inevitable, using CalHypo might be the difference between having to change water in one year vs several years.

I'm sorry if this post sounded harsh or unfriendly, it was not meant to be that. I will end with a quote from Dave, Site Owner of here at TFP:

Throughout TFP, you will read that we suggest certain levels that good science and practical experience has taught us fall within safe ranges.

Further reading of posts here will draw you to the inescapable conclusion that these guidelines work.......in thousands and thousands of pools worldwide.

You may or may not choose to use these methods and guidelines or you may use some and not others. Our goal is to teach you what has been proven time and time again and then let you use that information to your benefit.

 

[needsajet]

Welcome to TFP! It's great to hear that you found us and that the written resources have been helpful.

That's about 20 ppm of borates, so not a worry and won't have any challenging effects with adopting TFP. If you decide to add the Cal-hypo, 30 lbs will add somewhere around 110 to 150 ppm CH (depends on the % of the Cal-hypo), so as you say, it may only slightly hasten a partial drain/refill. Many members here have learned and use good methods for managing at remarkably high CH levels, and they'll be helpful. We suggest the best methods and lowest cost, so as usual, we'll suggest you switch to chlorinating liquid, but it's technically just a calculation of water cost vs. the value of the cal-hypo.

When I started out, I found the TFPC for Beginners thread very helpful, so just in case you haven't seen it, I'll add a link.
TFPC for Beginners

Great to have you here, and thanks for a great first post, including a first-class job on the signature Your pool sounds great and very well equipped!

 

[Musashi]

Thank you, everyone, for the great replies.

domct203



Yes, my Taylor kit is it the K2006 that contains a FAS/DPD chlorine test.

Here are my test results:

FC - 16 (which is extremely high since I recently shocked the pool w/ Di-Chlor to bump up my CYA a bit. I was at zero chlorine due to pool equipment maintenance causing everything to be off while waiting for a part for 5 days. Anyway, I only added 3 pounds of Di-Chlor so I wonder if the borates are affecting this somehow?)

FC - 16 (not 1.6 Yikes!)
CC - it's either 1 or 0.1
pH - between 7.6 & 7.8
TA - 80
CH - 350 - 380
CYA - above 30 & less than 40




tim5055



I didn't think your post sounded harsh or unfriendly at all. There is so much bad information that one picks up over the years and hearing it straight is not always easy but it's good medicine.

And, yeah, I should have balanced the pool water first & then added borates. Since then I've added a lot of acid before finally registering on TFP due to the TA/PH issues I was having. I'm still not sure I'm out of the woods yet.

Wow! no chlorine source should ever be applied by placing it in the skimmer? I'm not questioning the advice but really in shock because all of the information out there on Poolife's NST Cal-Hypo Tablets says it's the only one that's safe for the skimmer. But I totally get the dangers of a micro-environment of highly acidic water sitting around in the skimmer. I'll need to look for a special CalHypo feeder instead ... Or count my losses now early on & stop using them. What a waste of money.


needsajethttps://www.troublefreepool.com/members/106381-needsajet



I'm gathering that my 14 pounds of Ultima Endure Water Conditioner is what equals the 20 ppm of borates? Strangely, the manufacturer doesn't say much about ppm, just dosage for gallons.

The Cal-hypo I was planning to use was the Poolife's NST Cal-Hypo Tablets since it was such a large expense but no powder was planned. It's a very hard lesson learned and my goal is to lower my costs by using only chlorinating liquid as suggested.

Thank you for the Beginners thread link.



My perpetual thanks to everyone for taking the time to personally address my concerns. What a great community you have here.

 

[chiefwej]

There are really only two ways we recommend for maintaining chlorine levels, liquid chlorine (AKA bleach) and Salt Water Chlorine Generator (SWG). Any powdered or solid form brings with it something you don't want or need. Extra CYA or calcium. Both will cause you to have to drain and refill regularly. In AZ our water already has too much calcium. I spent one full year with calcium levels well over 1000, so I know it can be done, but it's not easy or fun. Be careful about how you chlorinate.

 

[domct203]

Thank you, everyone, for the great replies.

domct203



Yes, my Taylor kit is it the K2006 that contains a FAS/DPD chlorine test.

Here are my test results:

FC - 16 (which is extremely high since I recently shocked the pool w/ Di-Chlor to bump up my CYA a bit. I was at zero chlorine due to pool equipment maintenance causing everything to be off while waiting for a part for 5 days. Anyway, I only added 3 pounds of Di-Chlor so I wonder if the borates are affecting this somehow?)

FC - 16 (not 1.6 Yikes!)
CC - it's either 1 or 0.1
pH - between 7.6 & 7.8
TA - 80
CH - 350 - 380
CYA - above 30 & less than 40




tim5055



I didn't think your post sounded harsh or unfriendly at all. There is so much bad information that one picks up over the years and hearing it straight is not always easy but it's good medicine.

And, yeah, I should have balanced the pool water first & then added borates. Since then I've added a lot of acid before finally registering on TFP due to the TA/PH issues I was having. I'm still not sure I'm out of the woods yet.

Wow! no chlorine source should ever be applied by placing it in the skimmer? I'm not questioning the advice but really in shock because all of the information out there on Poolife's NST Cal-Hypo Tablets says it's the only one that's safe for the skimmer. But I totally get the dangers of a micro-environment of highly acidic water sitting around in the skimmer. I'll need to look for a special CalHypo feeder instead ... Or count my losses now early on & stop using them. What a waste of money.


needsajet



I'm gathering that my 14 pounds of Ultima Endure Water Conditioner is what equals the 20 ppm of borates? Strangely, the manufacturer doesn't say much about ppm, just dosage for gallons.

The Cal-hypo I was planning to use was the Poolife's NST Cal-Hypo Tablets since it was such a large expense but no powder was planned. It's a very hard lesson learned and my goal is to lower my costs by using only chlorinating liquid as suggested.

Thank you for the Beginners thread link.



My perpetual thanks to everyone for taking the time to personally address my concerns. What a great community you have here.

See if the pool $tore will take back the cal-hypo. Let them know that your CH is already above ideal, and you don't need it. Even if they give you store credit, maybe they sell sodium hypochlorite, aka bleach, or pick up muriatic acid, a new brush etc.

The key to success is your FC to CYA ratio. Never, ever let your FC get below 7.5% of your CYA. At that point the amount of active sanitizer is rather low and it would be easier for algae to start. Any lower and bacteria and other nasties can start to proliferate. Target 12-15% for daily maintenance.

Chlorine / CYA Chart

With a CYA of 40 (always round up in-between numbers), a FC of 16ppm is considered shock level (40% of CYA), and is not high enough to cause any damage to your pool.

Regarding CC, your test kit will either read 0.2ppm increments with a 25ml sample, or 0.5ppm increments with a 10ml sample, so a 0.1ppm reading is impossible. We recommended using the 10ml/0.5ppm resolution as it makes the math easy, saves on reagents, and is accurate enough.
With that said, if your CC's are truly 1ppm, you should perform the OCLT to see if organics are at play. If you fail the OCLT, perform a SLAM to eradicate anything growing in the pool.

 

[needsajet]

Just in case the pool store won't take back the pucks, I looked up Poolife NST Cal-hypo tablets and it looks like they are 8 oz pucks, 70.3% calcium hypochlorite, so I used 73% cal-hypo in PoolMath. They must have laughed out loud in the branding meeting when they chose the name poolife! TFPC is all about knowing what we're doing to our pools based on good testing and proper chemistry. You can use the Poolife NST Cal-hypo tablets, while being aware of the tradeoff.

Each cal hypo puck will add 3.6 ppm FC. The tradeoff is that each puck also adds 2.6 ppm calcium hardness (CH). So the use of pucks will hasten a drain/refill for calcium hardness management. Assuming 30 lbs of pucks, you'll consume the pucks in about 90 days. If you kept on doing this after your current stock is gone, then as Tim and others have mentioned, you will start having an impact that could hasten a drain/refill by a season or more.

If you have to use the pucks, you could avoid issues with your equipment or the skimmer by putting a puck in at the beginning of a pump run and seeing if it's all gone before the end of a pump run. Another alternative is a $10 floater. You put the puck in it and it bobs around the pool.

At some point, you'll have to remove the 150 ppm CH added by the next 30 lbs of pucks (as well as the CH added by topping up the pool). I did some quick calculations and assuming you let CH rise to 1000 ppm before draining and then refill with 100 ppm CH water, you'll remove about 2/3 of the water in order to get back down to 400 ppm CH. As part of that draining, 900 gallons will be removed to get rid of the CH that was added by the pucks. I don't know what your water costs, but we often hear $10 per thousand gallons, so that's roughly the tradeoff.

If you do the drain refill at 800 ppm CH, then about 1400 gallons will be attributable to the use of the pucks.

So you can get the value from your expenditure if need be, but also being aware that you might need to buy an extra $10 or $15 worth of water someday.

 

[domct203]

What is your fill water CH?

 

[Musashi]

I really appreciate all of your individual responses. Your advice is extremely helpful and timely.


chiefwej


When we first had our pool built in 2007 we had a SWG and salt water. After the salt cell died approx 5 years later we opted to get rid of it and did a refill with regular water. At the time it seemed cost prohibitive to replace it. Now I've come to believe liquid chlorine will be the way forward doing it the TFP method.


domct203


I hadn't thought it possible but I will ask the pool $tore if they will take back the cal-hypo tabs or get an in-store credit of some kind. Thanks for the idea.


I never knew about the importance of our FC to CYA ratio. Excellent information.


I've had the Taylor test kit now for about a week and a half. So I'm still not quite grasping the CC testing. Especially since when I did the CC test there was hardly any color at all that appeared. I rounded up to get a number since there was a slight tinge. Sorry about that. Thanks for straitening me out on the ppm increments & for additional info.


needsajet


It's really cool that you did all that math to weigh out the pros & cons of using the Poolife NST Cal-hypo tablets. Incredible, really. Thank you. I think the tradeoff of keeping them probably isn't worth it. Plus, I'm not sure Poolife's NST tabs may not dissolve properly in a floater because it takes over a week for 1 tab to fully dissolve in the skimmer. So these things are pretty tight.


To refill the water in our 12k pool it cost us $65 dollars here in Phoenix AZ. So $5.41 per thousand gallons isn't too bad.


domct203


Our fill water CH is around 330




I'm very grateful for everyone's great advice and support. Thanks again.

 

[chiefwej]

I don't know what brand or model SWG you have. But, assuming a Hayward T-15, which would be more than adequate for your 12k pool, a new Hayward brand T-15 cell runs about $450. $450 divided by the five year life you got out of it, makes the cost of chlorine $90 per year. I doubt you will be able to do it much cheaper any other way. You certainly won't find a more convenient way to chlorinate a pool.

That's how a SWG works. A salt cell will only produce a finite quantity of chlorine then. it must be replaced. That's how you pay for your chlorine.

 

[Musashi]

I don't know what brand or model SWG you have. But, assuming a Hayward T-15, which would be more than adequate for your 12k pool, a new Hayward brand T-15 cell runs about $450. $450 divided by the five year life you got out of it, makes the cost of chlorine $90 per year. I doubt you will be able to do it much cheaper any other way. You certainly won't find a more convenient way to chlorinate a pool.

That's how a SWG works. A salt cell will only produce a finite quantity of chlorine then. it must be replaced. That's how you pay for your chlorine.

chiefwej


I'm glad to know you are in Arizona too. I can't imagine Tucson is all that different from Phoenix pool-water-wise for our hot environment.

Back when our pool was brand new, we had a Pentair IntelliChlor IC40 Salt Chlorine Generator Cell. This was at least $850 retail at that time. Getting 5 years out of it was pretty good for that brand I hear. The Hayward T-15 you mentioned seems to have better consumer ratings current day than our previous Pentair model.

I guess when it came time to replace the cell, the price was still well above $700 and we just didn't want to pay the cost.

You are correct though, weighing in the cost per year vs all of the chemicals seems like we should have kept with a SWG.

There was probably many factors contributing to our decision like lack of education, bad pool maintenance, and the lack of applying any TFP methodology. Even with our Pentair salt cell, early on, we were still using chemicals like Dichlor & Trichlor to augment the SWG's lack of performance. But our water was probably out of wack & we were frequently going to the pool store which probably made matters worse. So in end, our poor experience with using the Pentair salt cell did not give us any 'Warm Fuzzies" about continuing on that path. We just wanted off that ride.

For a while, the cost of our yearly chemicals was lower than $450 but as the balance of the water swayed out of range (and with pool company guidance) we are/were spending a lot of $$ again. Now we are trying to reverse these past missteps and go the TFP way. Which for many is using liquid chlorine.

We will have to revisit using a SWG like the Hayward T-15 now that we know of TFP and can manage our current yearly costs better. I want to believe it would be cheaper to use a SWG than liquid chlorine - assuming it would provide all of my chlorine needs without other sources. But maybe with a SWG you still have to augment?

Thank you for the suggestion as it could very well be a viable option for us. I still got a long way to go in assimilating the TFP methods to how I maintain my pool and will definitely look into the SWG and going back to a salt pool.

 

[mknauss]

With a 12K gallon pool and an IC40 you should never should have had to augment your chlorine adds with anything. Properly managing your CSI to be sure you SWCG did not get scale and also properly managing your run times should have easily covered your FC needs. The one caveat is if you have a persistent algae load in your pool. Then the SWCG could never keep up.

I would never give up my SWCG here in the desert. I can leave for extended periods and the pool stays perfect. I do have to have a local pool service come and add acid once a week and clean the pool. But that cost is minimal and part of our ability to travel.

I have to change out our water about every 16 months. The CH reaches 1000ppm after about that amount of time. If you cover your pool during portions of the year you can reduce that as you will have less evaporation, especially at night.

Take care.

 

[chiefwej]

If the control unit is still working properly, you could put the IC 40 back in service. It looks like a replacement cell runs about $500 online. But, more importantly you need to take control of managing the proper chemical balance of the pool.

The best thing you can do is to spend some time reading and studying Pool School (button at the top right of this page). It may seem overwhelming at first,but with study will all begin to fit together and make sense. Ignore advice from anywhere other than this forum, stay out of pool stores. What we do here is based on good solid science, consistent accurate testing and only adding to a pool what is needed, no magic potions. If you don't have a proper test kit, get one, and learn to use it. There are only two we recommend, Taylor K-2006 and TFT-100. Of the two, the TFT-100 from TFTestkits is by far the best value. It has more of the reagents you will use the most. Your test kit will become the best investment you ever make.

Once you have the basics of balancing and managing the pool using liquid chlorine, we can look at the converting back to SWG, to see if it makes sense for you.

Welcome to TFP! If you want to make yours a TroubleFree Pool, like many thousands have done, there are lots of friendly folks here that will help answer all your questions along the way.