New pool plumbing help

[Lampasas1]

I am currently having a fiberglass pool installed and will soon be at the plumbing part of the install. I asked my pool contractor for a plumbing plan and he basically said they will make the plan at installation. That is not acceptable for me so I have attempted to draw a diagram utilizing what I have learned from scouring through the information on this site. I would greatly appreciate your review and criticism of the plan. I just want to get it right the first time. Some details of the pool and spa installation:

Thursday pool Aspen 35x16 (10k gal)
Thursday pool spillover spa elevated 18”
Pentair VS pump IF3 3 hp
Pentair cartridge filter cnc 200
Pentair Intellicenter I8 w/ ic 40 and wireless remote
Pentair mastertemp 400k btu
Glacier cooler gpc 210
Auto fill w/ anti siphon valve
Pentair prowler 920
2 skimmers
3 pool returns
2 dedicated chiller returns
Spa will have 6 jets, blower pump, return

Functions I would like to occur:

-Returns run to pool only, spa only, pool and spa simultaneously
-heated spa, pool, spa and pool simultaneously
-chilled pool and heated spa simultaneously
-periodic turnover of spa water utilizing spa returns and spillover

There might be other functions that I am not thinking of. Let me know where I’m deficient in my plan. Thanks

-Sam

 

[Bperry]

I am currently having a fiberglass pool installed and will soon be at the plumbing part of the install. I asked my pool contractor for a plumbing plan and he basically said they will make the plan at installation. That is not acceptable for me so I have attempted to draw a diagram utilizing what I have learned from scouring through the information on this site. I would greatly appreciate your review and criticism of the plan. I just want to get it right the first time. Some details of the pool and spa installation:

Thursday pool Aspen 35x16 (10k gal)
Thursday pool spillover spa elevated 18”
Pentair VS pump IF3 3 hp
Pentair cartridge filter cnc 200
Pentair Intellicenter I8 w/ ic 40 and wireless remote
Pentair mastertemp 400k btu
Glacier cooler gpc 210
Auto fill w/ anti siphon valve
Pentair prowler 920
2 skimmers
3 pool returns
2 dedicated chiller returns
Spa will have 6 jets, blower pump, return

Functions I would like to occur:

-Returns run to pool only, spa only, pool and spa simultaneously
-heated spa, pool, spa and pool simultaneously
-chilled pool and heated spa simultaneously
-periodic turnover of spa water utilizing spa returns and spillover

There might be other functions that I am not thinking of. Let me know where I’m deficient in my plan. Thanks

-SamView attachment 542616

No chlorine being added when the chiller is operating?

 

[Lampasas1]

No chlorine being added when the chiller is operating?

Yes, I wondered about this too. As it is currently drawn on the plan, the water through the chiller will be returned without going thru the swcg. Most of the water is diverted past the chiller anyways and towards the swcg and back to the pool. The chiller utilizes a slower flow rate so the water can trickle down the cooling mats before being returned to the pool. The only time chlorine is not going to the pool is if the chiller is returning water to the pool and the spa only is being heated and returned only to the spa. I don’t foresee this configuration being run more than an hour or so at a time.

Do you think this configuration might cause a problem?

 

[ajw22]

-Returns run to pool only, spa only, pool and spa simultaneously
-heated spa, pool, spa and pool simultaneously
-chilled pool and heated spa simultaneously

With the IntelliCenter 3 way valves with actuators only allow two setting - POOL or SPA.

You cannot do the simultaneously things listed above. You heat your pool or spa. Or you chill your pool. One at a time.

SPILLWAY mode could let you heat the spa and spillover to heat the pool inefficiently.

 

[Lampasas1]

You cannot do the simultaneously things listed above. You heat your pool or spa. Or you chill your pool. One at a time.

My understanding is that the chiller input must be adjusted to work at a slow and steady flow rate to effectively evaporative cool the water. Thus I believe that a majority of the water from the pressure side could bypass the chiller at the 3 way and go to the heater, which then could be directed to the spa, right? Therefore I think I could technically cool the pool and chill the spa at the same time. Is there something I am missing here?

 

[ajw22]

My understanding is that the chiller input must be adjusted to work at a slow and steady flow rate to effectively evaporative cool the water. Thus I believe that a majority of the water from the pressure side could bypass the chiller at the 3 way and go to the heater, which then could be directed to the spa, right? Therefore I think I could technically cool the pool and chill the spa at the same time. Is there something I am missing here?

We will ignore the mismatched flow rate issues for the moment.

Where will the suction come from? Pool or spa?

Suction from the pool with heated water returning to the spa means the spa will overflow the spillway and you will have heated water flowing into the pool you are trying to chill.

It will not work.

 

[mas985]

There are three modes that a pool/spa can operate in:

Spa Mode = Spa Suction -> Spa Return - The heater will operate in this mode but operating the chiller will drain the spa so should not be allowed.

Spillover mode = Pool Suction -> Spa Return - The chiller and heater will work in this mode but operating both at the same time is counter productive so should be prevented.

Pool Mode = Pool Suction -> Pool Return - The chiller and heater will work in this mode but operating both at the same time is counter productive so should be prevented.

What these modes do not allow and Allen was trying to explain was that you should never run the chiller and heater at the same time for the reasons give above.

However, if you really want to run the chiller by itself and completely separate from the spa operation, I would suggest a second pump with a separate plumbing loop (suction and return to/from pool).

 

[Lampasas1]

Ok. That makes sense. I will never be able to get the suction and return flow rate to equalize and circulate in the spa only with the chiller valve on too. The spa water level will change dramatically. Thanks for helping me understand that.

Do you see anything else with the plumbing plan that is questionable?

Should I move the chiller further downstream? After the swcg?

 

[Lampasas1]

However, if you really want to run the chiller by itself and completely separate from the spa operation, I would suggest a second pump with a separate plumbing loop (suction and return to/from pool).

This is an interesting idea. Would there be a potential problem with flow rate and back pressure since the chiller flow rate is fairly slow compared to output of the pump?

 

[mas985]

What is the make/model of the chiller and do you have link?

Since that is an evaporative chiller, it might be just as effective to have a fountain in the pool.

Cooling A Pool - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[Lampasas1]

What is the make/model of the chiller and do you have link?

Glacier Pool Cooler GPC 210

Pool Chillers and Pool Coolers by Glacier Pool Coolers

Glacier Pool Coolers llc is the affordable answer and solution for hot swimming pools. Our pool chillers work excellent in humid climates operating with low costs and high efficiency, while heat pumps are costly to operate and struggle in summer months

glacierpoolcoolers.com

 

[mas985]

Did you read this part:

Your pool is not going to drop degrees during daylighthours. Run your pool and cooler at night to drop the temperature of your pool.*

They aren't wrong and if you operate the cooler only at night, then there should not be a conflict with the spa. I would just plumb it after the return spa/pool valve so it can only run when in pool mode.

But if you want a separate pump and plumbing loop, the maximum flow rate seems to be around 45 GPM which is not all that high so a very small self-priming pump that may need a small amount of throttling could work. But I would just stick with running the cooler at night.

 

[TopJimmy]

With the IntelliCenter 3 way valves with actuators only allow two setting - POOL or SPA.

You cannot do the simultaneously things listed above. You heat your pool or spa. Or you chill your pool. One at a time.

SPILLWAY mode could let you heat the spa and spillover to heat the pool inefficiently.

You can do what you want if it’s a 2-body system using the i10d dual body expansion card. If you do this then no spillway, though. Will need 2 separate pumps, intellichlors, filters, and heaters, tho. It’s bottom line much more expensive.
It’s what I did with mine and I sort of regret it.

 

[Lampasas1]

So I’ve decided against trying to plumb to cool the pool and heat the spa at the same time. I initially wanted to have the flexibility to do that, and you have made it clear that it is something that could happen but not easily or inexpensively. I appreciate the guidance on that.

Attached is the new plumbing flow chart with the help of mas 985 (thank you). Please tell me if y’all see any pitfalls with this.

Also, I know there are recommendations on pipe size, schedule, and fitting types. Can you recommend what would work best with this setup?

 

[Lampasas1]

@mas985 @ajw22 and anyone else. I need help on plumbing this pool. Here is where we currently sit:

Yellow: 2 skimmer drains
Blue: 2 spa drains
Green: 1 spa return
Black: 1 of 3 pool returns
Red: dedicated chiller return
All the fittings on the pad are dry fitted for now.


There is no heater bypass/check valve.

We had talked about plumbing the cooler on the pool side of the 3 way pool/spa return so the cooler could only be on when the pool side is being returned…that didn’t happen.

What other issues can you guys see?

 

[mas985]

Is there 4 main drain covers in the spa? Why are there two lines?

If there are only two covers in the spa, and each has it's own suction line, that is not to code.

What size pipe is used for the spa? Looks to be only 2" which is usually much too small for spa jets depending on the number. How many spa jets are there?

 

[ajw22]

If there are only two covers in the spa, and each has it's own suction line, that is not to code.

If there are two drains single piped it may to code if they have adequate separation and use proper covers.

I would not be happy with buried flex PVC. When we see problems with buried PVC it is mostly flex.

 

[Lampasas1]

There are 2 spa drains and 6 jets. I was on the fence with flex pvc hose, but seems like most of the builders around here use it.

What would you recommend for spa drain pvc size?

 

[ajw22]

Don’t put the flex PVC under concrete. Have dirt you can dig up if necessary.

 

[Bperry]

Don’t put the flex PVC under concrete. Have dirt you can dig up if necessary.

On top of that see if you can make sure to use rigid PVC at the pool shell so no flex tubing is buried under the shell. I might ask how much they’d charge to switch it over to rigid PVC.