New Pool Plaster Issues (Cracking)

[Dirk]

^^^ What they said. Let them proceed with their method of repair. Remember, if you are seen as the one directing the repair, then they could turn that back on you if it comes to legal proceedings. Be sure it is understood that you are authorizing demo to ascertain the extent of the problem at their recommendation, but no repairs (covering anything up) are to commence without your approval. Get something to that effect in writing.

Seems to me this is the obvious first step, so I wouldn't consider this a stalemate. The tile and coping can be the second step. They're willing at this point, and haven't bolted and are taking steps. That's what you want.

 

[meow_meow]

One step at a time............first step being taking the plaster out. Now to make sure of this. They are chipping out ALL of the plaster correct? NOT just where the crack is?

No, they are not chipping all the plaster out. Just in the area of the crack.

 

[JamesW]

In my opinion, there is no doubt that the gunite is cracked and that they are not going to do anything other than patch over where they chipped out the plaster and then they will tell you to watch it and report any new cracks.

Maybe the settling is done and it won’t crack again and maybe it’s not.

You won’t know for a while.

I would want a sample core drilled through the crack for analysis and an elevation survey done to see if everything is level and to establish a benchmark for future reference, but you would have to find and pay your own experts to do this as the builder certainly won’t agree to do this or to pay for it.

 

[JamesW]

It’s basically impossible for a crack to go through the plaster, tile and coping without the gunite/shotcrete being cracked.

 

[kimkats]

No, they are not chipping all the plaster out. Just in the area of the crack.

Now that makes me upset as there is NO way the new plaster will even come close to matching the old plaster. GURRRRRRR

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Tell them you want the tile and coping removed above the crack and you will pay for the mason to come and do that. Tile is dirt cheap fix and the coping can be removed by the mason and replaced. It won’t cost that much to do and you will immediately see if the bond beam was compromised in any way.

If the pool builder is so absolutely sure of himself and the workmanship, then he should no object. If he does object, then he’s worried about what will be found and how much he will be on the hook for.

 

[meow_meow]

Tell them you want the tile and coping removed above the crack and you will pay for the mason to come and do that. Tile is dirt cheap fix and the coping can be removed by the mason and replaced. It won’t cost that much to do and you will immediately see if the bond beam was compromised in any way.

If the pool builder is so absolutely sure of himself and the workmanship, then he should no object. If he does object, then he’s worried about what will be found and how much he will be on the hook for.

So you’re basically saying if the builder won’t agree to remove the tile and coping in their dime, to just foot the bill ourselves for self-assurance?

 

[JoyfulNoise]

So you’re basically saying if the builder won’t agree to remove the tile and coping in their dime, to just foot the bill ourselves for self-assurance?

I would say to the builder that I am concerned that the crack goes through the concrete shell and up to bond beam and that I want to be assured the shell structure isn’t compromised. I would tell them that I want to see evidence of the bond beam integrity and if that means the removal of a few select tiles and pieces of coping that I would pay for the labor and materials to do the work.

The builders response will tell you all you need to know about how confident they are …

 

[JamesW]

Core drilling can assess the strength of the concrete.

If the concrete is really weak, then that can explain the cracking.

If the concrete is really strong, then that points to settling.

It can be a combination of weak concrete and settling.

The challenge with core drilling samples is that the concrete will never be perfectly uniform in thickness or composition.

So, you need many samples to get a good statistical representation.

I would want at least one through the crack and at least two or three in areas that are not cracked.

The core drill sample through the crack can’t be compression tested due to the crack.

That’s why you need to core drill in areas with no crack.

The samples can be compression tested to see their compressive strength.

 

[meow_meow]

Core drilling can assess the strength of the concrete.

If the concrete is really weak, then that can explain the cracking.

If the concrete is really strong, then that points to settling.

It can be a combination of weak concrete and settling.

The challenge with core drilling samples is that the concrete will never be perfectly uniform in thickness or composition.

So, you need many samples to get a good statistical representation.

I would want at least one through the crack and at least two or three in areas that are not cracked.

The core drill sample through the crack can’t be compression tested due to the crack.

That’s why you need to core drill in areas with no crack.

The samples can be compression tested to see their compressive strength.

I appreciate your comments.

I’m unsure how I’m going to be able to get my builder to go thru with when at this point; they don’t have a proposal for the tile or coping.

Suggestions? Especially when they likely refuse to do these things?

 

[JamesW]

You're going to need to hire your own expert if you want an independent evaluation.

 

[Dirk]

I appreciate your comments.

I’m unsure how I’m going to be able to get my builder to go thru with when at this point, they don’t have a proposal for the tile or coping.

Suggestions? Especially when they likely refuse to do these things?

While I agree with James' assessments, about the very-un-likelyhood this is anything but a shell failure, and how to go about determining for sure what is wrong, I still contend taking any repair or assessment steps into your own hands can possibly end with you paying for some or all of the repair. Which might be anywhere from several hundred dollars to six figures (if they have to demo the old shell and start over). I don't actually know if either end of that range is correct, but I would guess neither do you. I know this, if a "do over" is in your future, it can't be accomplished for the cost of a new pool, it would be considerably more than what you've already paid, because now there is a pool in the way and the soil has been disturbed, etc.

If this were me, I would not settle for a plaster patch, even if that and some cosmetic shell repair could be the fix, by some miracle. Nor would I settle for where James is accurately predicting this is heading if the Contrator has his way: a poorly-matching cosmetic fix for the plaster and a wait-and-see process that could take years, which would then be dependent on the builder's solvency, or even his mood, some years or decades from now. Is that what you paid for? A pool that might not fail?

Before I spent my own money on core drilling or tile removal, I'd spend it on a construction attorney, ideally one that specializes in construction and/or pool defects. I believe the best course of action is for all parties to understand the expectations of this process in short order, ideally before it even begins. As I mentioned before, I would encourage the approach that you are expecting the contractor to prove the shell is sound (or that any fix would make it so) and that the plaster/tile/coping etc will be restored to as new condition, all at no cost to you. I would also insist on a preliminary itemization or contract, in writing, of the proposed steps to get there. Like:

Contractor acknowledges the following defect...blah, blah, blah and agrees to assess and repair the defect as follows,
1. Remove X amount of plaster surrounding the existing crack in the plaster blah, blah, blah to assess the shell.
2. As needed based on #1, remove X amount of tile covering any existing crack in the shell blah, blah, blah and assess the shell.
3. As needed based on #2, remove X amount of coping covering any existing crack in the shell blah, blah, blah and assess the bond beam.
4. Repair or replace blah, blah, blah. Exact scope of repair to be determined after initial assessment(s) based on #1 and/or #2 and/or #3.
5. Restore coping, tile and plaster to as new condition blah, blah, blah, replacing all plaster if necessary blah, blah, blah.

That's just a layman's rough outline, something along those lines, but written by an attorney for proper format and to include all the details that only someone with experience in getting something like this rectified could fill in.

You might discuss with the attorney what you can demand, like core samples or third party concrete specialist inspections, etc, that would go along the lines of the the contractor proving to you that the shell is sound.

My primary rebuttals to some of the suggested courses of actions are:
1. Do not demand how the repair process, or even the assessment process should take place. That needs to be negotiated and agreed to, or better yet suggested by, the contractor, with attorney/client approval.
2. Do not take any part of the repair or assessment process into your own hands, to avoid any future accusations like "Oh, now I'm not going to fix that because you did so and so."
3. Do not approach this like YOU have to prove to the contractor what needs to be done. He needs to prove that to YOU, and to your reasonable satisfaction.
4. At this point your position should be to accept only a plan that could lead to the following end result: a pool free of defects, constructed properly considering the existing soil conditions, that doesn't cost you a dime more than the originally agreed upon amount.

And if that's not possible, or reasonable, then that, too, is something upon which the right attorney can advise.

Just my 2¢.

 

[meow_meow]

Now that makes me upset as there is NO way the new plaster will even come close to matching the old plaster. GURRRRRRR

Yeah, not happy about it. They are offering to acid wash the entire pool - the plaster color hasn't been great either. Lots of streaking. From what I’ve read, an acid wash isn’t a good idea on a new plaster job tho. Dunno. I kind of don’t care tho as I can see work needing to be done down the road sooner than later. Sigh…..

 

[Dirk]

Yeah, not happy about it. They are offering to acid wash the entire pool - the plaster color hasn't been great either. Lots of streaking. From what I’ve read, an acid wash isn’t a good idea on a new plaster job tho. Dunno. I kind of don’t care tho as I can see work needing to be done down the road sooner than later. Sigh…..

It's not a good idea on any plaster. Short version: acid washing removes plaster (not just stains alone) and shortens its lifespan. If it is true plaster, and not some sort of aggregate/pebble finish, you will likely be left with a rougher-feeling finish, possible pitted (or micro-pitted). Again, not what you paid for.