new pool owner looking for recommendations for VS pump

[detroit54]

Hi all,

The home I just moved into has a ~17,000 gal pool. The pump is a single-speed Sta-Rite Dura-Glas P2RA5E-124L with Century HSQ125 motor (I think it is 230V 1-phase). I'm guessing the pump is around 2 ft above the pool water surface, and the pump is located around 6 ft from the corner of the pool. There is a Hayward C9002 cartridge filter, 1.5" plumbing with three suction lines (L to R in photo): pool drain, skimmer, and vacuum. And no, the pump and piping are not level or plumb. The pump is tilted as much as 5 degrees from horizontal. The suction pipes are not vertical, so I'm guessing the whole mess just settled over the years and it is what it is unless I can fix it with 11-degree fittings or something. The vacuum is a Hayward Navigator Pro W3925ADC. The previous owner had a solar pool heater on the roof, but removed it when they changed shingles. Water is piped from the pump outlet to the filter, then from the filter it goes through the old heater pipes to the left, up to the diverter valve, then back to the right and into the chlorinator before I assume it goes underground and on to the pool returns. There are 5 outlets around the perimeter of the pool. The previous owner was running the pump 3 hours a day, which I suspect is not even close to sufficient and was probably done to save money with the single-speed pump. I would like to replace the pump with a VS model, and was thinking about buying one of the Calimar options since they are supposed to be the same as the B&D (and others) but for much lower cost. I'd still consider the B&D if better or if 2hp is the "right" size for me to use. I was going to just go for the 3hp VS pump, but I read some things about 1.5" pipes that worried me a bit. I would have thought I could just run the pump at lower speeds and then schedule it to run for 2 hours at whatever max speed is needed to equal the current flow rate, then 10 hours at a mid speed and 12 hours at low to keep water circulating 24 hours a day.

I plan to do the work myself, and am also planning to install a salt chlorine generator, possibly a CircuPool Core-35 or Core-45. I'm also planning to remove all of the 2" plumbing that used to go to the solar heaters since it's just creating unnecessary headloss at the moment and gives me more potential locations for leaks in the future. I will also remove the pin timer for the existing pool pump since the VS pumps have their own control panels with 4 speed settings that I can program.

I would really appreciate any recommendations/explanations. Thanks!

 

[HermanTX]

Welcome to TFP.
Thanks for the photo as that helps visualize what you are requesting

First, can you lay a concrete foundation for the pump and filter? That would help prevent any future issues.

Second - a VS pump would be very beneficial. Go with either a 2HP or 3 HP, You will rarely (if ever) need to run at full speed (other than for priming for about 2 mins). The advantage of a higher HP VS pump is that you can move the same amount of GPM but at a slower RPM. A slower RPM translates to lower power consumption. My pool runs at 1500 rpm for 20 hrs and at 2000 rpm for 4 hrs every day. Unless you have a pressure side cleaner or a water fall there is rarely a reason to run at high RPM. There has been good review on both B&D and Calimer pumps (you can search the forum). 1.5-inch piping will be fine.

Third - If you install a SWCG - which is a great idea - and the CircuPool brand also has good reviews on the forum - you want to find the minimum RPM that activates the flow switch then add 100 rpm. This will be the baseline RPM for your pool. Only increase the speed if you need to mix chemicals or if more skimmer action is needed.

Fourth - Timer - it is great if you run your pool 24 hrs so the SWCG can make a chlorine throughout the day. A SWCG should only be powered on when the pump is running. The flow switch is a secondary safety that will turn off the SWCG if there is no flow.
If there is a desire to run less than 24 hrs, you can hook up the VS pump to have constant power and use the pump schedule for that. The SWCG can be connected to the timer and run on a schedule while the pump is on. Just need to check it ever so often that the timer is in sync with the pump time. You want to avoid having the SWCG powered on while the pump is off.

 

[detroit54]

Hi, thanks so much for your detailed reply!

Yes, I could lay a small concrete foundation for the pump and filter. When walking around the property, I thought I saw a fairly large square concrete paver block and thought about maybe using that if the dimensions are big enough, with compacted paver base underneath. Might be a similar amount of labor, but I'll put the pump and filter on something more stable than the current setup for sure.

I just ordered the B&D pump and the CircuPool SWCG. I also ordered an Intermatic AG3000 surge protector, and might attach it where the existing timer enters the pump sub panel if I get rid of the pin timer.

Could I simply rely on the built-in SWCG flow switch to activate and deactivate the cell when the pump reduces flow? I'm not sure at all what the running schedule will look like, but I had assumed if the pump ran too slow to activate the flow switch, that would be the time when the SWCG sits idle. I could use the existing timer for the SWCG otherwise.

Thanks!

 

[HermanTX]

Could I simply rely on the built-in SWCG flow switch to activate and deactivate the cell when the pump reduces flow? I'm not sure at all what the running schedule will look like, but I had assumed if the pump ran too slow to activate the flow switch, that would be the time when the SWCG sits idle. I could use the existing timer for the SWCG otherwise.

The flow switch is considered a secondary means of shutting down the SWCG. Primary should be removal of power via some method. In an automation system, there is a relay that is opened therefore severing power. For your situation it would be best to have a timer synced with pump run time. Some of the new name brand pumps have a relay built into the pump. I am not sure if the B&D pump does that. What is the specific model number/part number of the pump.

If a SWCG still operates with no flow - then gases build up and we have heard of cell explosions which can be quite catastrophic. We recommend against relying solely on the flow switch to turn off the SWCG.

 

[detroit54]

The flow switch is considered a secondary means of shutting down the SWCG. Primary should be removal of power via some method. In an automation system, there is a relay that is opened therefore severing power. For your situation it would be best to have a timer synced with pump run time. Some of the new name brand pumps have a relay built into the pump. I am not sure if the B&D pump does that. What is the specific model number/part number of the pump.

If a SWCG still operates with no flow - then gases build up and we have heard of cell explosions which can be quite catastrophic. We recommend against relying solely on the flow switch to turn off the SWCG.

Ok, it sounds like I'll need to either use the pin timer or maybe use a CSR. The CSR seems like the more foolproof solution for the long term in case of power outages that could unsync the timer and pump controller. I need to plan the SWCG installation more carefully - I got suckered by the "easy DIY install in 15 minutes" ad and didn't even think about what I actually need to install on the electrical side, like another 15A GFCI breaker for starters.

The B&D pump model number is BDXBTVAR300.

 

[detroit54]

I just found this post from March 26, 2018:

My setup was installed the same as yours. I moved the pump leads from the switched side of the intermetic timer to the hot side so it has continuous power. Then I wired my IC40 to the switched side. Now, I run the SWG on the timer with a 30 minute buffer or more on each side of the pump start and end time. One thing to note is that the pump will not lose its time during a power outage but the timer will. So it is important to keep the clocks synced up.

I'm on the fence and might do something like this, but I noticed the existing 20A pool pump breaker isn't a GFCI type, so I'll probably end up replacing it with the proper size GFCI breaker, then get a smaller GFCI breaker for the timer for the SWCG. Then I can always replace the timer with a CSR in the future if desired.

Question: the B&D manual shows 10A for the 3hp pump, so is it ok to still use a 20A breaker?

 

[HermanTX]

I just found this post from March 26, 2018:



I'm on the fence and might do something like this, but I noticed the existing 20A pool pump breaker isn't a GFCI type, so I'll probably end up replacing it with the proper size GFCI breaker, then get a smaller GFCI breaker for the timer for the SWCG. Then I can always replace the timer with a CSR in the future if desired.

Question: the B&D manual shows 10A for the 3hp pump, so is it ok to still use a 20A breaker?

Great that you found that info. Exactly what should be done.
Either use a 15A or 20A GFCI breaker for the pump. A timer does not need to be GFCI. Just pumps, lights

 

[detroit54]

Great that you found that info. Exactly what should be done.
Either use a 15A or 20A GFCI breaker for the pump. A timer does not need to be GFCI. Just pumps, lights

Awesome, thank you!

 

[detroit54]

Ok, so it looks like I'm going to be replumbing more than I had anticipated. I'm planning to bring the 1.5" suction line to the inlet of the new B&D VS pump using their supplied 1.5" union. From there, the Hayward C900 cartridge filter and the Core35 SWCG both have 2" ports, so I will probably just use the 2" pump outlet union and keep everything 2" diameter until after the SWCG, then use a reducer to get back to the 1.5" that goes underground to the pool returns. Does that sound ok?

Regarding the filter plumbing, would it be a good or bad idea to raise the cartridge filter such that the filter inlet/outlet is at the same elevation as the pump outlet? i.e., it seems like a shame to come vertically out of the pump, turn 90 degrees to go horizontal, then 90 down and 90 over to the filter, then out of the filter with another 90 up then 90 over to the SWCG, then out with another 90 or two before going underground. Seems like it would be more efficient to raise the filter up, although that elevation might end up being 18" or more above the pump base. But maybe the flow rates are low enough that a few extra 2" elbows in a 1.5" piped system won't make much difference. Thoughts?

 

[HermanTX]

Ok, so it looks like I'm going to be replumbing more than I had anticipated. I'm planning to bring the 1.5" suction line to the inlet of the new B&D VS pump using their supplied 1.5" union. From there, the Hayward C900 cartridge filter and the Core35 SWCG both have 2" ports, so I will probably just use the 2" pump outlet union and keep everything 2" diameter until after the SWCG, then use a reducer to get back to the 1.5" that goes underground to the pool returns. Does that sound ok?

Great - most all pads have change over from 1.5 to 2” . Try to minimize the adapters as you have done because they just take up space.

Regarding the filter plumbing, would it be a good or bad idea to raise the cartridge filter such that the filter inlet/outlet is at the same elevation as the pump outlet? i.e., it seems like a shame to come vertically out of the pump, turn 90 degrees to go horizontal, then 90 down and 90 over to the filter, then out of the filter with another 90 up then 90 over to the SWCG, then out with another 90 or two before going underground. Seems like it would be more efficient to raise the filter up, although that elevation might end up being 18" or more above the pump base. But maybe the flow rates are low enough that a few extra 2" elbows in a 1.5" piped system won't make much difference. Thoughts?

This is a dilemma for all of us because every filter inlet is different. I would just leave the filter on the ground or slightly raise it if it makes accessing the drain plug on it easier. If you do decide to raise it, whether it is 6 inches or 18 inches is to ensure your filter is stable as it is full of water and don’t want it stressing any pipe. While any fitting such as an ell will increase the head on the flow, it is marginal and not worth all the extra effort or lost of stability of a larger filter.

 

[detroit54]

Great - most all pads have change over from 1.5 to 2” . Try to minimize the adapters as you have done because they just take up space.


This is a dilemma for all of us because every filter inlet is different. I would just leave the filter on the ground or slightly raise it if it makes accessing the drain plug on it easier. If you do decide to raise it, whether it is 6 inches or 18 inches is to ensure your filter is stable as it is full of water and don’t want it stressing any pipe.

Ok, I may just keep it as is, then. Looks like there is a concrete pad under there after all! It might not show up in the photo though, it was pretty buried. And badly settled near the house.

 

[detroit54]

I raised the slab and got everything installed and plumbed up finally. Two of the three suction line valves were not properly glued and came off easily when I twisted them, sigh. So, I got new valves. All pipes above the valves are 2". I sloped the slab away from the house slightly, so I had to shim the pump base to make it level. I still need to wire up the SWCG, but it's in place. I replaced the original pump wiring shown in the photos below, used just to test the pump, with new wire and conduit today.

I programmed it to run 24/7 for now:

Speed 1 2600rpm 892w start 8am duration 2hr
Speed 2 1200rpm 122w duration 8hr
Speed 3 2000rpm 431w duration 2hr
Speed 4 1200rpm 122w duration 12hr

But, I just read a bunch of posts here saying anything more than 3 hours/day (+ a bit for SWCG) is a waste of energy. ?

 

[HermanTX]

I raised the slab and got everything installed and plumbed up finally. Two of the three suction line valves were not properly glued and came off easily when I twisted them, sigh. So, I got new valves. All pipes above the valves are 2". I sloped the slab away from the house slightly, so I had to shim the pump base to make it level. I still need to wire up the SWCG, but it's in place. I replaced the original pump wiring shown in the photos below, used just to test the pump, with new wire and conduit today.

I programmed it to run 24/7 for now:

Speed 1 2600rpm 892w start 8am duration 2hr
Speed 2 1200rpm 122w duration 8hr
Speed 3 2000rpm 431w duration 2hr
Speed 4 1200rpm 122w duration 12hr

But, I just read a bunch of posts here saying anything more than 3 hours/day (+ a bit for SWCG) is a waste of energy. ?

The set up looks good. Great job.
A SWCG produces chlorine using 2 variables - % output of the SWCG and the pump run time (the speed just needs to be high enough to activate the flow switch). Do you have the PoolMath app. It can run a calculation to determine how much chlorine is generated based on the % output of SWCG and the pump run time. You need to have it set up to produce what chlorine is needed to be replaced because of bather load or lost to UV, such as 2, 3, 4ppm per day.

The time that pump needs to run is based on various requirements
1 - produce chlorine as discussed above
2 - skim your pool
3 - run a water feature
4 - mix chemicals such as the chlorine produced, MA to lower pH or TA, or other chemicals you may need to add for CH, Salt, CYA

 

[detroit54]

The set up looks good. Great job.
A SWCG produces chlorine using 2 variables - % output of the SWCG and the pump run time (the speed just needs to be high enough to activate the flow switch). Do you have the PoolMath app. It can run a calculation to determine how much chlorine is generated based on the % output of SWCG and the pump run time. You need to have it set up to produce what chlorine is needed to be replaced because of bather load or lost to UV, such as 2, 3, 4ppm per day.

The time that pump needs to run is based on various requirements
1 - produce chlorine as discussed above
2 - skim your pool
3 - run a water feature
4 - mix chemicals such as the chlorine produced, MA to lower pH or TA, or other chemicals you may need to add for CH, Salt, CYA

Thanks! Been running great so far. I'll install a 120v digital timer for the SWCG this week, then use a test strip to find roughly how much salt is already in the water.

I downloaded the PoolMath app after reading your reply - will poke around a bit and see what I can do for free then decide if I want to subscribe.

Pool chemistry seems to be pretty stable since running the pump around the clock, but it wasn't too bad before either. I read somewhere that I should lower my TA prior to adding any salt, and I'll probably add borates (Bioguard Optimizer possibly). Does this seem like a good idea? What order and how should I go about it? I did read an article in Pool School about adding acid then aerating, so I could aim my returns at the surface for this purpose. Any other advice?

 

[HermanTX]

TA level does not impact salt. There is a relationship between TA and pH. Both decrease with addition of MA but at different rates. It may take weeks or more to lower TA depending from where it is now. The process is to let pH rise to 7.8 or 8 (max) then dose with MA to lower pH to 7.2. Then aerate (waterfall, spa spillover, or return jets pointed to surface) to rise pH but no rise in TA. Continue this process of dose and aerate until your TA reaches your target (50-80 ppm). Each pool will settle out where pH stays stable or very slow rise so don’t target a specific TA number but look to where your pool settles out best.
Go to the Wiki (Top Left of site) and look for pH and TA relationships.

There is also a Wiki on Borates if you wish to try that. Some members have used it with positive results but it does add more things to monitor and adding it is a process as well so consider your own specific needs.