New Pool: Hayward Omnilogic

[dobakmit]

Hello. This is my first post here. I have spent hours and hours looking through manuals, calling service centers and looking through the internet and found that this community forum might be most helpful.
We have a in-ground pool and above-ground spa which is attached to the pool.
Currently, we have the filter pump on for the pool, which then shows that the spa is in "pool mode". Once this turns off (all filter pumps off), the water drains from the spa.
Once this turns back on, the water fills back into the spa.
With all filter pumps off, I turn on the filter pump for the spa, this fills the spa back up as well.
The pool filter pump is on from the morning to the evening, running 10 hours a day as recommended but there will be times when you want to use the spa in the evening - so it's odd that I have to re-turn on the filter pump just for that.

Just not being familiar with the product, I don't know if this is normal behavior, it seems odd that the spa drains in any circumstance.

My question to the forum is if the behavior above is normal and how can I change it so that the spa does not drain?
I thought it may be a valve issue but because it re-fills up, it seems like that is not an issue.
Also, what is the difference between having the pool filter pump on vs. the spa filter pump on (realize its just the difference in water flow), but Hayward is not clear whether I need both on for the spa not to drain.

 

[VinceL]

We have a similar configuration...inground fiberglass pool with spa that spills over into the pool.

We have the Hayward ProLogic system. It can be easily configured to support a pool and spa and to run them independently or having water spillover from the spa into the pool. There is never any water drainage out of the spa. The ProLogic switches 2 motorized valves to select where water is drained from (pool or spa) and where it is returned (pool or spa).

Do you have a photo or diagram of your equipment pad? That could help to provide feedback to you.

 

[dobakmit]

Thank you Vince. I will try to get more specific information and photos.

When you say you can run them independently, what do you mean by that? It seems my settings are such that if I turn on the filter pump in the spa, the Pool goes into spa mode and if I turn on the filter pump in the pool, the Spa goes into Pool mode.
This makes it seem like they are always dependent.

 

[VinceL]

Thank you Vince. I will try to get more specific information and photos.

When you say you can run them independently, what do you mean by that? It seems my settings are such that if I turn on the filter pump in the spa, the Pool goes into spa mode and if I turn on the filter pump in the pool, the Spa goes into Pool mode.
This makes it seem like they are always dependent.

I have inserted an image of the Prologic Control Panel:

There is a section on the left that has a buttom with 3 settings: Pool, Spa and Spillover. The Prologic is configured so that when you press the button to highlight Pool, the motorized valve are positioned to pull water from the pool drains and skimmer and to return water to the 2 returns in our pool. If Spa is highlighted, the valves turn so that water is drained from the spa and is returned through the 8 jets in our spa. If Spillover is highlighted, the valves are positioned to pull water from the pool drains and skimmer and to return water through the 8 jets in the spa. In this case water in spa cascades down into the pool. Hope this explanation helps.

 

[CPS Reno]

I second the request for a clear picture of your equipment AND labeled plumbing. We've done dozens of these and 99% with OmniLogic, so I feel you have a plumbing issue or your valve actuators are switched backwards. This might show what we're looking for:

 

[dobakmit]

Thank you for your replies. I was able to take some pictures and get a little bit more information as well.

So the current settings on my Omnilogic is:
Pool Filter Pump 8am to 6pm --> Everything seems fine
Once the Pump goes off --> Spa drains to under the blowers/jets which is roughly pool line
Spillover Mode 7am to 8am --> This re-fills the Spa

I was told these settings were done by a Hayward Rep.

I have attached some pictures as well - sorry I am not most familiar so hopefully this is a start.
I will take a look at the diagram and see if I can label things better.

 

[CPS Reno]

I haven't found enough time to really look at your plumbing, but there's some weird setup stuff going on there. Particularly the grey switches, do you use them? The Omni Logic is to replace basically all switches to control your pool. I can't see a good reason for them here. Other than that, I see a lot of inlets and what look like check valves.

 

[dobakmit]

I believe the 4 gray switches are on and off for the functionality itself, sort of like the main power switch. When I turn on the blower from the App, it will only turn once the gray switch is "on".

I have been trying to educate myself as much as possible as well. If you look at the first picture I posted, you will see there are two automatic actuator valves and the one on the left is diagonal and the one on the right is vertical - pointing towards you.
On the back of the actuators, there was a switch auto 1 and auto 2, and I toggled between them to reset/sync and they became horizontal, which I think makes more sense as in the different modes, you want them to divert the water flow.

For Pool Mode: both the handles are pointing to the right so its closing off the flow from the pipes on the left
For Spillover Mode: only the handle changes on the left side with the handle now pointing left (opposite of right)
For Spa Mode: both the handles are now pointing to the left (exact opposite of the pool mode)
- For some reason now, it seems to throw a " No Water Flow Flowsensor" error sometimes in this mode (never seen that before and sometimes shuts the system off)

Lastly, when I turn the system off from Spa Mode, the handles do not stay in place and reverts the right hand side actuator so it resembles spillover mode.
This drains the spa.

I manually (using the auto 1 and auto 2 toggle on the back of the valve actuator), change it back to what it looks like during spa mode, which is both the handles are pointing to the left.
This seems to NOT drain the spa - Finally! So this probably means its a software/set-up issue
So I think this means I can probably rule out:
- Leak in the hot tub
- bad valve / leaky valve

So I guess my new questions are:

- Is what I did and the behavior I described a possible solution?
- Does it make sense when the valve actuator's are in that position, the spa does not drain but in every other scenario, it drains?
- What does the error message mean? "No Water Flow Flowsensor"
- Perhaps I did not notice this before but it seems now in these settings (any of them), when the filter pump is on, I see more "bubbles" from where the water is coming in, where it certain locations, it surfaces to the top
- How can I change the behavior so that no matter what, the "end" result after turning off any pumps is such that the actuator valves end up in that position. As mentioned, in spa mode, once I turn it off, it reverts to spillover mode.
In pool mode, once i turn it off, it stays on pool mode

Sorry for the long winded and confusing post.
I hope at least this very novice way to explain things might make the pictures of the set-up clearer.

Thank you very much.

 

[rphpool]

I can't tell from your picture but if all pumps are off , spa should not flow back (empty). I can't see if there is a back flow check valve on the spa returns. Look at post #5 above for the check valve next to spa return ( middle of diagram 3pm position).

 

[dobakmit]

Thank you for your reply. Once again I want to thank everyone for replying and the forum in general as I have been learning a lot and hopefully my posts are getting clearer each time.

I have attached a picture with color circles to point to them in my post. Unfortunately, none of this is labeled so I am also blind.

Yellow (top left): heater
Black (bottom left): 2 valves that are both open
Red (bottom middle): valve actuators (automatic)
Green (middle): TurboCell (Chlorination)
Blue (middle): Filter Pump
Purple (bottom right): a valve that is closed
Orange (top right): Blower for the Spa

I played around with the settings today and here are my observations and directions so there are no confusion.
Current picture has the left valve actuator in the "left" position and the right valve actuator in the "right position". I am describing the direction where the handle is facing.
This is "Spillover Mode" and has been the only way for me to fill my spa that drains. This seems to work correctly as the spa is spilling over into the pool.

"Spa Mode" is "Left" "Left" so from "Spillover Mode", the right valve actuator turns from it's current position to "Left"
"Pool Mode" is "Right" "Right" so the complete opposite 180 degrees on both sides from "Spa Mode"

I know I said above I found a way for the Spa to not drain but from the different settings (I only played with my Hayward Omnilogic App), it seems like in all cases, the spa will drain when I turn off pump.
I have NOT touched any of the other manual valves as I do not know what they are supposed to do.
It seems like they are all "open" to let water pass through (there are 8 of them), there are 3 that are not color circled which are the ones to the right of the heater (yellow circle)

I am confused by the Black Circle (bottom left) which are dual pipes that are both "Open" --> not sure what they do
I am also confused by the Purple Circle (bottom right) which is the only valve that was in the closed position --> perhaps that is to drain the pool?

I can provide different angles of photos as needed.

********************************
There can be a leak with a valve but this is a brand new system and I want to make sure it's not a settings issue.
The 2nd picture I have attached (is the same one as before) - I am confused at the position of the valve actuator as those are not positions I have been able to replicate. This picture was before I synchronized them by toggling ON1 and ON2 but the different modes seem to have fine.

Is there anything obvious from the diagram that needs to be changed for the spa to not drain when the pump is off?
Based on my limited knowledge, I have concluded based on how the valve actuators are moving that the left one controls the RETURN and the right one controls the DRAIN.
Logic is, in spillover mode the left side is LEFT and right side is RIGHT which means the left side is returning water to the spa and the right side is draining from the pool.
Something like the table below.

Mode	Left Valve	Right Valve	Returns	Drains
Pool	Right	Right	Pool	Pool
Spillover	Left	Right	Spa	Pool
Spa	Left	Left	Spa	Spa

Thank you for reading the long post. I do surely feel lot more educated though.

 

[dobakmit]

I decided to experiment myself with closing/opening of the valves circled in black in the previous post which were both previously open.

I put the system on "spillover mode" so that the spa was full.
I turned off the pump and as usual, the spa started draining, I let it drain about an inch.
I then turned both the valves (orange and green) to a close position (so handle is now facing right).
I waited 10 minutes and checked the Spa, it seemed like there was no noticeable drain to my eye.
I then opened up the top valve (orange), waited 10 minutes and checked the Spa, once again, no noticeable drain to my eye.
I then opened up the bottom valve (green), waited 10 minutes and check the Spa, it was noticeably drained.

It seems from this trial and error, the bottom valve (green) somehow controls the drainage from the Spa.
Does anyone know what this is and if this is something I should have closed?

There seems to be a check valve (or something that looks similar) that is vertically placed below the bottom valve (green).
The top valve (orange), may (total guess) connect to the apparatus on the way left (red) which is my "jet pump" but when I turn it on, I hear the pump but I see nothing occurring in the spa or pool which seems to be the problem.

I hope this trial and error makes the set-up more obvious for the experts.

For now, I put everything back in the original position so the spa drains, in case I was not supposed to touch those valves when the system is running.

Once again, any advice and observations are much appreciated.

 

[dobakmit]

Randy,

This figure makes lot more sense now (I think) after the several posts I did. Below definitely includes many things I don't have but I think most of the components are there.

Starting from the right side of my setup, I seem to have 3 pipes coming from the pool:
- All the way to the right with a check valve & diverter valve (why would both of these be present?) (purpose circle)
- Two vertical (side by side with no colored circle)

My guess is that the two vertical are the two skimmers I have and the purple circle is the main drains from the bottom of pool (I have two)
The purple is "closed" while the other two are "open" --> should this one be closed?

All of this meets at the actuator valve (red circle on right) and it's allowing for the water from the pool to go through.
It is currently closing off water from the spa drain, which I am assuming is that singular pipe.

Then it goes to the filter pump (circled in blue) and the move towards the large tall brown filter which then moves the water to the heater (circled in yellow)
Then it goes to the turbo cell (circled in green) and meets the left actuator valve (circled in red on left side)
In the image, it is closed off to the singular pipe which I believe is returning the water back to the pool (does it make sense it's just one pipe, there are many return pipes on the side of the pools)

On the spa side, it seems to go to two different places
- one has a diverter valve which is open
- one has a diverter valve which seems to go to a circular item that looks like a check valve but I am not sure (bottom of image)

When I manually close both of these, the spa does not drain
When I open the top (with just diverter valve), the spa does not drain
When I open the bottom (diverter valve and check valve?), spa seems to drain.

I hope this helps explain the setup and issue I have.

Similar to your diagram, I also have a spa blower (orange circle) and spa jet pump (off to the side) - last pictured, circled in red on the left side.
It seems pretty isolated similar to your diagram and I can't see how it connects to anything above (only guess I had was maybe that's why the spa return has two pipes).
When I turn on the blower, aggressive air/bubbles like a spa come out of the holes on the side of the spa.
When I turn on the jet pump, I hear the pump start but I do NOT see any impact/change to the spa --> what is this supposed to do?

Thank you!

 

[dobakmit]

As a further update, this morning, as scheduled spillover mode ran and re-filled the spa.
After this was done, the pool mode ran which subsequently drained the spa.
I filled the spa again using spillover mode and then switched to spa again but this time, I turned the diverter valve (mentioned above, bottom left, green circle) to close the tube.
This did NOT drain the spa. It has been over an hour and the spa is completely filled.

One interesting observation is the fact that the spa drains in pool mode because the valve actuator is blocking the return on the spa side so it means the water is draining through "green circle / bottom diverter valve" and getting lost through "orange circle / top diverter valve"

***Quick Update***
With the bottom valve closed (green), the spa did not fill up during spillover so that must be the return line.
Also I had mentioned before that having the bottom valve open meant spa was draining but it seems like the spa won't drain if that's open and the top (orange) is closed
********************

Does anyone have any potential ideas on what these two are for and what the correct setting should be?

Once again, apologies for very long and many posts but I am updating them as I am learning/experimenting as well.

Thank you.

 

[dobakmit]

Just bumping the thread. Please help!

 

[CPS Reno]

I think we're getting somewhere. Let's solve an easy one before we get into the rest: the pump all the way to your left by itself should be your Spa Jet pump. It takes water from the main drains in your spa and pushes it out, by design with A LOT of velocity, from the jets in the walls of your hot tub. This should do a lot more than you're saying it does. When we do a pool/spa combo, we give our customers the ability (through the Omni) to run the jet pump independently of your Spa Blower (the air blower). You have something wrong if the jet pump doesn't do anything.

On to plumbing, we need to establish what's what. You've started, but I want to confirm and maybe give more details. I numbered the valves and described them, to what we call them, below:
1) This is the suction 3-way valve. This decides where water is pulled FROM as it feeds the pump. It should only use two positions, one will pull/suck water from the pool and the other will pull/suck water from the spa. In one picture it's stopped so it's pulling water from both the pool and spa at the same time. It shouldn't ever do that, please confirm.

2) We call this the return 3-way valve. As you'd guess, this controls where the pressured water flow (from your Filter Pump) goes. It should also only use two positions AND they should be exactly 180 degrees apart. One puts water back into the pool return (eyeballs) system and the other put's it to the same thing but in the spa. Please confirm that this valve always stops with the handle always going either 90 to the right and 90 to the left. If this valve doesn't completely open/close BOTH pool and spa lines, there's your leak.

3) I'm going off what you said above and guessing this is the pool main drain valve and check valve. This pulls water from the very bottom drains inside your pool. The check valve is there so water can only go from pool to pump, but stops water from going back into the pool.

4 and 5) Again, going off your info, this should be the pool skimmer valves. One for each skimmer, although it's rarely ever built that way. We always use one valve for any/all skimmers. THIS DOES NOT HAVE A CHECK VALVE (that'll be important later)

6) Honestly not sure. It has to go to the spa, but I'm not sure where in the spa. Maybe you can mess with it because we need to figure it out.

7) Same here, not sure where in the spa it goes, but we need to find out. Normally we plumb spas with one line going to returns (eyeballs) in the spa that is used to heat, filter and chlorinate the spa, not two. That's one of the reasons I suspected you have a water feature.

All of these valves that I've numbered are just that, valves. The only difference in all of your is that valves 1 & 2 have automated valve actuators on them so the SYSTEM can open/close them when needed. The other important point to remember is that the handle is the opposite of "most" valves that people know. Think of the handle as a broom handle. The inside of the valve has a "gate" on the end and that's what actually controls water flow/direction. It's important you know that so you can decipher where water is coming/going in any given valve position. See my other picture attached.

The reason I went into the details was to show you the flow of water, as it's designed. The reason that's important is because the ONLY way for water to "empty the spa" is for water to flow from the spa back into the pool. The issue might be solved with the questions around valves 1 & 2, if they don't completely open/close the pipes they are designed to do. Assuming those valves are correct and that your check valves are working properly..........the only other way you could lose water is because it's running from the spa through valve 6 (then obviously through valve 2, the rest of the EQ, then through valve 1 and then into the pool via valves 4/5). The reason you need check valves is to prevent water from flowing backwards while the actuator valves are moving. If I was forced to identify what's wrong right now, it would be that water is going backwards through valve 6 right into the pool while valve 2 is moving. With a check valve AFTER valve 6, water can't move backwards. Problem solved?

 

[dobakmit]

Randy,

Thank you very much for your reply.

I agree that the pump all the way to the left (doesn't seem to look like its connected to the main apparatus) is the spa jet pump. I hear/see it turn on when I turn on the spa jet pumps. It did not do anything until recently when now I get 3/10 strength water/air flow coming out of the two closest pipes and probably 1/10 from the rest, it is very weak and you can't visually see it from above the spa. The blower would be 10/10 strength.

1) I can confirm the picture you labeled (original picture), it is never facing north (handle up). The handle only faces "left" or "right".

2) This also only faces "left" or "right", it is basically parallel to 1)

3) I am only assuming this is the drain from the pool given I have no idea what it could be. Please note this has always been in the "left" position like in the picture, which means it has been closed
Does it make sense to be closed?

4/5) I have 2 skimmers and they are on opposite corners so I just assumed they came in through two pipes, perhaps one is the drain and one is the skimmer which means 3) can be something else?

6) Agree - I am stumped too!

7) Agree - this one has a valve as well (not sure what the purpose of this is though), also see below.

Here are some observations which may help:
The way I am filling my spa when empty is by going to "spillover mode". This turns (1) so the handle is left facing and turns (2) so the handle is right facing.
Which suggests, that water is coming from the pool via (4) and (5) and then going back through (6) and (7).
When I close (7), which means handle is facing either left or right (horizontal, not vertical as pictured), then the spa does NOT fill. This suggests that is the spa return
When I re-open (7) and just close (6), the spa does fill and it feels to me the spillover from the spa is very "heavy" - lot of water, not sure if this happens all the time but I did notice it enough to jot it down.

After the spa is full and I go to "pool mode". This turns (1) so the handle is right facing and keeps (2) the same, right facing.
In theory, by doing that, the spa water from 6 and 7 should/can not drain as (2) is blocking it.
At this point, when I close (6), the spa will not drain which suggests this is where the drain is occurring (as you say above) but not necessarily when (2) is moving but all the time.
It seems like a check valve would solve that issue (but still I probably should understand what (6) does). Can I replace the current valve in (6) with a check valve or do I need to add a check valve?

The natural question then became for me, what happens if i have (6) closed at all times - the spa overfilled quite a bit and I got the "No Water Flow Flowsensor Error".
This happened once, I did not keep trying.

Thank you!

 

[CPS Reno]

Well at least we are going in a direction.

As for 3/4/5 valves. Yes, you can run with the main drain closed. To confirm 4/5, simply confirm there's suction inside each skimmer (obviously pump is running) then shut one of the valves and check for suction again. One of the skimmers should stop sucking.

Sounds like your 3 way valves are set properly, including Pool, Spa and Spillover mode. Pool mode pulls water from the pool (via MD and SK's) and returns it through the eyeballs. Spa should pull water from the spa MD (Does your spa have a skimmer?) and return it to either eyeballs or jets or a combo of both. Spillover pulls water from the pool and returns it to the spa, thus the water is spilling over from the spa physically dropping into the pool.

Maybe it's time to see your spa and the area where it spills over into the pool. We have to figure out what valves 6 and 7 specifically do.

 

[dobakmit]

Thank you again for your reply!
I feel lot more educated but still lot more learning to do.

I opened up the two skimmer covers (opposite side/ends of the pool) and noticed that one was running (lot of debris and clear water movement) and one was not (no debris and no water movement).
This is in my default state which is (4)+(5) open (handles facing right) and (3) closed (handle facing left).

I closed (5) and the skimmer that was running stopped.
I re-opened (5) and closed (4) and nothing happened (that I could notice/see)
I re-opened (4) and opened (3) and nothing happened (that I could notice/see)
- in particular, I did not really see the valve open in the check valve in (3) - I felt like last time I did see it open

I assume the one skimmer not operating is an issue --> is there anything I can do to reset that? I tried taking the basket out and trying to see if there was any blockage but did not see any issues.
It also did feel like when i closed (4), I was definitely stopping water from entering

I have also attached two pictures of the spa.

1st picture: You can see the water level is basically down to roughly pool level. There are 8 pipes on the side which is where the blower and spa jets seem to come out of (albeit really weak on spa jets).
At the bottom there seems to be 4 drains, 2 on the bottom and 2 on the side.

2nd picture: This is a clearer picture of the bottom of the spa. The circular metal item is the light and you see another white pipe next to the bottom right drain. This seems to be where water comes into the spa (when I turn on spillover). Sometimes its fluid, sometimes it bubbles in the beginning.

Thank you.

Davy

 

[CPS Reno]

99% of the pools we see have a SK and MD feeding the filter pump (from the pool), so it sounds like valve 5 is your skimmer and 4 might be your main drains. I've never seen two skimmers plumbed on separate valves before and I think those two skimmers are all on 5. I would put money on your "other" skimmer line being restricted/plugged up and water loves to take the easier path, which would be why you're only seeing one skimmer work.

We really have to know where the pipe in the bottom of the spa goes. I wouldn't remotely understand why someone would do it, but can you see if valve 3 is the pipe by the main drains in the spa? If not, I would verify that valve 6 controls the mystery pipe. I can't tell if that pipe is setup to accept an eyeball or a fitting, but you could easily go to Home Depot and get a 1-1/2" rubber expansion plug to temporarily plug it. If you want to do that, do it before you go to bed. Ensure non of the equipment can come on overnight, leave the valves where they normally are but with that line plugged. You'll know in the morning if that's your leak.

On the jet pump again, the "other" 2 main drains in the spa are likely for that jet pump. I would REALLY hope that it's not the mystery line we're talking about above.......

 

[dobakmit]

I spent some time with different configurations before I saw your post. I will incorporate my findings along with your post.

I confirmed that (5) and (4) both have water flowing through as rotating them affects the water going through the filter.
(5) is most likely both skimmer's and would make sense that there is a restriction/plugged up since turning off (5) and opening up (4) or (3) did not fix the skimmer issue

I closed (5) and (4) with (3) open and that actually drained the spa even further and when I plugged it back up, spa started filling back up from the pipe in between the side drains.
But after 10 minutes, it only fills up to right above the circular drains (so essentially water only in that bottom pit).
What could this be? It was always closed so perhaps its to drain the spa or pool?

so my best guess is

(5) Skimmer - one is operating well, one is weak
(4) Main Pool Drain
(3) Drains Spa/Pool/Everything?

As mentioned before in regards to (6) and (7), it seems like (7) is what let's the spa fill back up in spillover mode.

************************************************************************************
Here are some observations which may help:
The way I am filling my spa when empty is by going to "spillover mode". This turns (1) so the handle is left facing and turns (2) so the handle is right facing.
Which suggests, that water is coming from the pool via (4) and (5) and then going back through (6) and (7).
When I close (7), which means handle is facing either left or right (horizontal, not vertical as pictured), then the spa does NOT fill. This suggests that is the spa return
When I re-open (7) and just close (6), the spa does fill and it feels to me the spillover from the spa is very "heavy" - lot of water, not sure if this happens all the time but I did notice it enough to jot it down.

After the spa is full and I go to "pool mode". This turns (1) so the handle is right facing and keeps (2) the same, right facing.
In theory, by doing that, the spa water from 6 and 7 should/can not drain as (2) is blocking it.
At this point, when I close (6), the spa will not drain which suggests this is where the drain is occurring (as you say above) but not necessarily when (2) is moving but all the time.
It seems like a check valve would solve that issue (but still I probably should understand what (6) does). Can I replace the current valve in (6) with a check valve or do I need to add a check valve?

The natural question then became for me, what happens if i have (6) closed at all times - the spa overfilled quite a bit and I got the "No Water Flow Flowsensor Error".

************************************************************************************

The 2 other main drains in the spa being for the jet pump make sense, I should have thought about that.