I do not recommend letting the BBB arbitrate this. It is legally binding and I have never heard of them being impartial when a dues paying member is involved.
Scott
Scott
New fiberglass pool is full of cracks... HELP!
- Thread starter mcaswell
- Start date
PoolGuyNJ said:
Yeah, I have no expectations of impartiality, and don't think anything will come of it. I just felt a need to at least try to get my issue on record with them. If the builder (worried about losing his valued A+ rating) suddenly comes through and agrees to install a new shell (properly, this time), great. If not, nothing lost, and I'll continue with the process of taking legal action.
--Michael
VinceL said:
Almost every builder in this area listed on the BBB site has an A+ rating. Only a few have A- ratings, and the reason cited for these is the length of time the business has been in operation.
In other words, virtually no one is unhappy with their pool builder around here... and according to the BBB, the few customers who are unhappy with their builders are nutcases, as the builder made a "good faith effort" to resolve the complaint. Sounds a bit fishy to me.
Regardless, there are other ways to spread the word. I'm quite adept at SEO, and I will put forth a great amount of effort to make sure anyone Googling for information about pools in this area (or, obviously, this specific builder) will find the site that I publish. Of course, I will not engage in slanderous behavior, but I will tell my story in a complete and honest manner, and let the reader decide whether or not they want to risk ending up in my situation.
I haven't taken this step yet, as I'm still hopeful this can be resolved with a happy ending. The same, however, cannot be said for my next door neighbor. She was deeply offended by the manner in which the builder "asked" her to immediately sign the letter of non-objection for the setback variance, and she has taken it upon herself to tell everyone she knows about how awful this guy is (and they themselves also were genuinely interested in having this builder install a pool for them). In addition, all of our kids' friends knew we were having a pool installed, and although we have not mentioned our difficulties to these parents (again, we're waiting to see how this turns out), it's only a matter of time before it starts to come up in conversation. I know at least one of these families was also very interested in having a pool installed.
So, I think it's safe to say that he's lost at least a couple of potential jobs as a result of this... and probably many more once I really put effort into spreading the word.
--Michael
All of our local TV channels, (major networks), have reporters that air situations just like this on a daily basis, it is amazing how quickly a business owner will come around and do the right thing when a reporter shows up asking questions.
Samantha Sabrina said:
This is a great idea. You also might want to look at Angie's List. I don't know if they have pool builders, but I'm guessing that they do. If so, you can rate the builder and describe the problems you've been having.
Yes from what we have seen in our area these "Investigative Reporters" do get results.
You send them your story, they come out and see what the problem/issue is all about, then they go track down the other party, either at their place of business, their home, other sites, ect, ect, and get in their face.
Scammers hate being exposed, (fewer victims in the future, plus possible law showing up), and legit businesses do NOT want bad publicity all over the evening news.
This might get much faster and less expensive results than having go to court?
I haven't looked at Angie's list yet so have no clue there.
You send them your story, they come out and see what the problem/issue is all about, then they go track down the other party, either at their place of business, their home, other sites, ect, ect, and get in their face.
Scammers hate being exposed, (fewer victims in the future, plus possible law showing up), and legit businesses do NOT want bad publicity all over the evening news.
This might get much faster and less expensive results than having go to court?
I haven't looked at Angie's list yet so have no clue there.
I wouldn't rule out the possibility of trying for one of those "action reporters" to take up the cause, but I certainly also wouldn't hold my breath... I'm sure they get many submissions, and can only take a handful. I will look into it though.
Just a quick update on where we are now. We're waiting to hear a response from the builder... he has until Friday. We're currently operating under the assumption that he'll not respond favorably (or will simply ignore it). Maybe he'll surprise us, but in the meantime we've been using this time to consider what our next step will be.
Ironically, the factor that truly "liberated" us in all this was coming to terms with the harsh reality that this shell does need to be replaced. Patching it in place is not an option (it's apparent that more cracks will continue to form, and this will likely be a chronic condition, perhaps even worsening over time and resulting in a structural failure). Pulling it out of the ground, patching it, and resetting it would result in a cosmetically deficient pool, as the repairs would likely be more conspicuous than the cracks themselves. So, the result is that this takes the option of keeping this shell off the table. One way or another, it's coming out and being replaced, as we don't want the liability and future hassle of a poorly-installed pool in our backyard.
So, rather than "we'll sue, and if we win we'll replace the pool", our stance is now "we're going to replace the pool regardless, and sue". So yes, that means we have to pay for another pool installation, and subsequently hope that we win and are able to collect on the judgement.
We need to investigate pricing, but I'm guessing somewhere in the neighborhood of $30K. Our original contract price was about $34K (sans decking), and we already have the electrical work done and all of the equipment, which I'd roughly estimate as being worth about $3500 - $4000). We'd have a mostly-excavated hole to work with, saving some money, but the damaged shell would have to be removed and the hole would have to be adjusted, with more backfill material needed as well, so I'm assuming these two would cancel each other out.
Regardless, having to cough up another $30K is not appealing, but at this point we don't feel like we have any other choice... it needs to be done. However, we've just recently started considering another option.
Several weeks ago my wife mentioned, "you should install the replacement pool." I'm a pretty handy guy, as I've built several house additions, remodeled a kitchen, performed flood repairs (twice), done electrical and plumbing work, built a shed, gutted/rebuilt a fiberglass boat, etc. But I do know my limitations. For example, I won't install carpet... it's just something that I know I wouldn't be good at. And, I'd be apprehensive about taking on the project of installing a fiberglass pool. I know I could handle the plumbing and electrical work (low voltage LED lights), and could do the brick coping and tile as well, but the actual setting of the pool seems like it might be a bit more than I could handle on my own.
But I've stumbled onto the concept of the "assisted installation", and I think that could be exactly what we're looking for. If I could have someone help me get the new shell set and backfilled, my wife and I could handle everything else, and we'd save a lot of money in the process. Depending on the size/shape of the new shell, we may or may not need to bring in an excavator (we might be able to just manually adjust the shape of the hole with shovels, though I'm sure this would be a lot of work, especially clearing out all the old backfill and loose soil from the hole).
Of course, our labor shouldn't go uncompensated, so we'd still sue for appropriate damages (in other words, what it would have cost for a pool company to come in and do the work, minus the equipment from the original build that was salvaged). But it would reduce the amount of money we'd have to come up with, and would also enable me to be more hands-on (and not just an observer) to help ensure things were done right.
The only sticking point we'd need to figure out is what to do with this damaged shell, and that's something we'll have to discuss with the lawyer (again, assuming the builder does not comply with our demands). Our preference would be to drain it, cut it up with a sawzall, and have the pieces hauled away. But we need to make sure we can legally do this (or if it would hurt our case). So, the shell might need to be pulled up intact, and stored (either in our yard – yuck – or offsite somewhere) until the matter is completely resolved.
--Michael
Just a quick update on where we are now. We're waiting to hear a response from the builder... he has until Friday. We're currently operating under the assumption that he'll not respond favorably (or will simply ignore it). Maybe he'll surprise us, but in the meantime we've been using this time to consider what our next step will be.
Ironically, the factor that truly "liberated" us in all this was coming to terms with the harsh reality that this shell does need to be replaced. Patching it in place is not an option (it's apparent that more cracks will continue to form, and this will likely be a chronic condition, perhaps even worsening over time and resulting in a structural failure). Pulling it out of the ground, patching it, and resetting it would result in a cosmetically deficient pool, as the repairs would likely be more conspicuous than the cracks themselves. So, the result is that this takes the option of keeping this shell off the table. One way or another, it's coming out and being replaced, as we don't want the liability and future hassle of a poorly-installed pool in our backyard.
So, rather than "we'll sue, and if we win we'll replace the pool", our stance is now "we're going to replace the pool regardless, and sue". So yes, that means we have to pay for another pool installation, and subsequently hope that we win and are able to collect on the judgement.
We need to investigate pricing, but I'm guessing somewhere in the neighborhood of $30K. Our original contract price was about $34K (sans decking), and we already have the electrical work done and all of the equipment, which I'd roughly estimate as being worth about $3500 - $4000). We'd have a mostly-excavated hole to work with, saving some money, but the damaged shell would have to be removed and the hole would have to be adjusted, with more backfill material needed as well, so I'm assuming these two would cancel each other out.
Regardless, having to cough up another $30K is not appealing, but at this point we don't feel like we have any other choice... it needs to be done. However, we've just recently started considering another option.
Several weeks ago my wife mentioned, "you should install the replacement pool." I'm a pretty handy guy, as I've built several house additions, remodeled a kitchen, performed flood repairs (twice), done electrical and plumbing work, built a shed, gutted/rebuilt a fiberglass boat, etc. But I do know my limitations. For example, I won't install carpet... it's just something that I know I wouldn't be good at. And, I'd be apprehensive about taking on the project of installing a fiberglass pool. I know I could handle the plumbing and electrical work (low voltage LED lights), and could do the brick coping and tile as well, but the actual setting of the pool seems like it might be a bit more than I could handle on my own.
But I've stumbled onto the concept of the "assisted installation", and I think that could be exactly what we're looking for. If I could have someone help me get the new shell set and backfilled, my wife and I could handle everything else, and we'd save a lot of money in the process. Depending on the size/shape of the new shell, we may or may not need to bring in an excavator (we might be able to just manually adjust the shape of the hole with shovels, though I'm sure this would be a lot of work, especially clearing out all the old backfill and loose soil from the hole).
Of course, our labor shouldn't go uncompensated, so we'd still sue for appropriate damages (in other words, what it would have cost for a pool company to come in and do the work, minus the equipment from the original build that was salvaged). But it would reduce the amount of money we'd have to come up with, and would also enable me to be more hands-on (and not just an observer) to help ensure things were done right.
The only sticking point we'd need to figure out is what to do with this damaged shell, and that's something we'll have to discuss with the lawyer (again, assuming the builder does not comply with our demands). Our preference would be to drain it, cut it up with a sawzall, and have the pieces hauled away. But we need to make sure we can legally do this (or if it would hurt our case). So, the shell might need to be pulled up intact, and stored (either in our yard – yuck – or offsite somewhere) until the matter is completely resolved.
--Michael
Sell the old shell on Craigslist for $500 and let hauling it off be someone else's problem.
jasonlmarsh said:
Yes, that was my wife's thought as well, but before I do anything I need to find out what my legal responsibilities are regarding the shell... technically, according to the contract, all this stuff still belongs to the builder (until the final payment is made), so if I discard it (or sell it very cheaply) will that be held against me somehow? I think there has to be some kind of solution for this, as I can't be expected to be "held hostage" by this damaged shell indefinitely.
The other concern is whether or not I'd be destroying key evidence by removing the shell, but I did ask the attorney about this and she does not believe it would be a problem... we would thoroughly document it first.
In other news, fate seems to be intervening in our favor a bit here. Not to the point of just snapping my fingers and making everything right, but certainly very helpful. I'm a wedding photographer, and I had pretty much considered myself fully booked for 2012. But just in the past week or so, I've booked an additional 3 weddings for the Fall, and yesterday got word of one more HUGE booking that will actually consist of two separate days of coverage in different cities. Our finances were sufficient enough to get through this ordeal (legal fees, pool replacement with the hope of eventually getting a judgement), but not comfortably so. This additional unexpected income will help dramatically. Don't get me wrong, it's not "free" money falling out of the sky and dropping in my lap, as I'll have to work very hard for it, but it's very welcome development.
And, as if that weren't enough, last night we received word that our sailboat (which we put up for sale to pay for the pool originally, or more accurately to pay back the money I "borrowed" from my savings to pay for the pool) finally has an offer (it actually had sold a few months ago, but the sale fell through due to the buyer's military deployment). So, that will be a massive help as well.
So, even though we already intended to follow this battle with the builder through to its conclusion, we're now in a significantly more comfortable position to do so.
--Michael
Put the shell on your front lawn - tip it on it's side - put up a large sign with the installers company name and some terms to describe it, maybe a big lemon, let's see how he likes that kind of advertising.
You should make a dedicated website to describe all this, such a web site can be created and hosted at no cost to you.
I hope everything works out for the best, I like your approach, at least you can get on with some degree of enjoyment (especially your kids) and worry about the money part over time.
You should make a dedicated website to describe all this, such a web site can be created and hosted at no cost to you.
I hope everything works out for the best, I like your approach, at least you can get on with some degree of enjoyment (especially your kids) and worry about the money part over time.
Actually, we thought about dropping it in HIS front lawn, but I like your idea better.cramar said:
Oh yes, I've got plans. And I'm reasonably good at SEO... with virtually no effort I could ensure that anyone Googling his company's name would find my site on page 1. With a little more work and time, gradually those just searching for pool builders in general in this area would find it as well.
In all fairness, I'm not sure I believe that this guy is truly a bad quality builder (although in this context, "builder" is a very generous term to use, as almost all the work was subbed out). He's been in business for close to 20 years, and I can't imagine he would have survived that long if botched installations were a regular occurrence. That said, his behavior in response to this instance when an installation DID happen to go wrong has been deplorable.
--Michael
If it was not stated in your previous demand letter, send him a second legal letter through your attorney, simply stating he has 10 days to come and remove "His" pool, or you will have someone else do it for him and dispose of it in the proper manner and then bill him for the removal and disposal.
Your attorney should know what steps need to be taken to get this done so you are not held hostage by this builder and his mess.
Best of Luck
Your attorney should know what steps need to be taken to get this done so you are not held hostage by this builder and his mess.
Best of Luck
mcaswell said:
As a former employee of the BBB I will tell you stay away from the BBB far far away. The BBB was started by the mafia and while those days are long gone and over the BBB still "protects" it's paying members. Truthfully it's the only thing the BBB has left to justify it's dues, most of the younger generation no longer looks to the BBB since there are countless review sites as well as Angieslist. Not to mention social networking has become the younger generations prefered method to seek recommendation when procuring goods and services.
Just to chime in if I was the builder in question and you were going to diy an install after a botched job my attorney would have a field day with that in court when you tried to sue for damages. Best to hire a pool company to protect yourself from him than to try to save a little.
swimcmp said:
Why is that? And even if the setting of the pool is done by an professional installer?
--Michael
After his experience my attorney would have a field day with his "pool installer" and would explain that I didn't trust anyone else. His pool installer should not be in business.
My lawyer just emailed me... the builder's lawyer is going to come look at the pool tomorrow afternoon. Funny, when I asked my lawyer during our meeting a week or so ago, "if you were representing him instead of me, what would you be telling him now?", she said that she would want to come inspect the pool herself, since the builder probably would be describing it as "just a couple of cosmetic hairline cracks".
--Michael
--Michael
You are a photographer not a builder and granted some builders shouldn't be in the pool industry. But you are going after him for damages have a "professional" doing the installation of the new shell will preveny him from claiming you damaged the original on purpose. You can have the new guy write a report of the condition of the installation as he is removing the original pool as he removes it.