New Build - Electrical for all Equipment - How many amps to Automation???

[malimited]

I'm in the process of building my new pool and the equipment I've selected is the following:

1. Hayward Omni PL
2. Hayward VS 700 (115v)
3. Hayward H250FDP Gas (115v)
4. Hayward W3AQR15

My question is how many amps should I be running from a dedicated circuit from the main panel to the automation subpanel? I already have a dedicated 20 amp that I can use for outlets. Is a 50 amp enough? I figured 15 for the pump, 15 for the heater, 15 for the saltwater generator.

What have others done with this setup?

 

[ajw22]

Welcome to TFP.

60 amps 240V circuit is sufficient for pools if you will not have a heat pump.

NEC requires circuits to not be loaded at more then 80% of rated capacity.

Pool pumps are best run on 240V. Modern VS pumps are throttled when run on 120V.

SWG does not pull more then 5 amps at 120V.

Refer to equipment installation manuals for correct power requirements and circuit breaker capacity.

 

[malimited]

Welcome to TFP.

60 amps 240V circuit is sufficient for pools if you will not have a heat pump.

NEC requires circuits to not be loaded at more then 80% of rated capacity.

Pool pumps are best run on 240V. Modern VS pumps are throttled when run on 120V.

SWG does not pull more then 5 amps at 120V.

Refer to equipment installation manuals for correct power requirements and circuit breaker capacity.

Thank you so much. This however shocks me with the cost, its 200 ft from the main panel to the automation and running the wires for this scenario is costly, about $1200 just for the wires. I'm wondering if there's a better way to do this, like run a dedicated 20amp 240V for the pump, use the existing 20amp 115V for the heater and SWG.

 

[ajw22]

Thank you so much. This however shocks me with the cost, its 200 ft from the main panel to the automation and running the wires for this scenario is costly, about $1200 just for the wires. I'm wondering if there's a better way to do this, like run a dedicated 20amp 240V for the pump, use the existing 20amp 115V for the heater and SWG.

You can do that. It complicates your electrical wiring and using the load center in the OmniPL.

You will need to meet NEC requirements for an equipment disconnect by the equipment pad for the pump.

Pump, heater, and lights need GFCI CBs.

What you save on the wire run will probably cost you in other complexities.

 

[TinFoilHat]

Just beware that if you trench for the new 240v line you might chew up the existing 120v line somewhere underground. I would run all new wires all the way. I did just this a few years ago. We didn't encounter much of the original conduit as it was laid closer to the fence than our trencher would go but it did chew up all of my edge sprinkler piping (expected). We pulled one 240v and one 120v circuit all the way to the pool leaving a 120v outlet in the corner of the yard. My uncle is an electrician so he knew the NEC rules but I don't know how it will differ in NJ where you probably get hard freezes. We switched from conduit that had rusted out all the way to the pool with the allowed sched 40 pressed together and run shallower than the steel was. I think it will last longer. As my uncle explained, you can run bare wires (don't do that, it's illegal) and water won't affect them, it was the rusted conduit that affected the wires. We finally found our short just four feet below the breaker box as the conduit made it's turn to head to the pool. We were planning to use that conduit turn as the beginning of our run until we couldn't get the melted wires out of that first length of conduit.

 

[JamesW]

At 200 feet, the voltage drop becomes a significant issue and the wire needs to be significantly upsized, which increases the cost.

Voltage Drop Calculator | Southwire

www.southwire.com

 

[JamesW]

This however shocks me with the cost, its 200 ft from the main panel to the automation and running the wires for this scenario is costly, about $1200 just for the wires.

Wires only or wires, conduit, breakers, trenching etc?

What size wires?

What is the expected/rated load for the quoted new wiring?

 

[malimited]

Wires only or wires, conduit, breakers, trenching etc?

What size wires?

What is the expected/rated load for the quoted new wiring?

Based on needing a 60 amp breaker, then I would need 4 gauge. #4 THHM is about $2/ft, plus the ground, which I forgot to include, so about $8/foot for 200 ft.
Thats why Im thinking there's gotta be a better way. I mean...the old pool build in 1970 had a single 20 amp breaker 115v running a heater and pump. So what Im thinking is use the existing 20amp breaker to run the heater, SWG, and for outlets. Then, run a separate dedicated 20amp 240v just for the pump.

 

[malimited]

Just beware that if you trench for the new 240v line you might chew up the existing 120v line somewhere underground. I would run all new wires all the way. I did just this a few years ago. We didn't encounter much of the original conduit as it was laid closer to the fence than our trencher would go but it did chew up all of my edge sprinkler piping (expected). We pulled one 240v and one 120v circuit all the way to the pool leaving a 120v outlet in the corner of the yard. My uncle is an electrician so he knew the NEC rules but I don't know how it will differ in NJ where you probably get hard freezes. We switched from conduit that had rusted out all the way to the pool with the allowed sched 40 pressed together and run shallower than the steel was. I think it will last longer. As my uncle explained, you can run bare wires (don't do that, it's illegal) and water won't affect them, it was the rusted conduit that affected the wires. We finally found our short just four feet below the breaker box as the conduit made it's turn to head to the pool. We were planning to use that conduit turn as the beginning of our run until we couldn't get the melted wires out of that first length of conduit.

I trenched everything in my house, so I know exactly where the active lines are (gas, electrical, irrigation, plumbing).

 

[JamesW]

The voltage drop calculation depends on the actual current and not necessarily the rated ampacity of the wires.

What is the total expected load for 240 volts and for 120 volts?

The ground and neutral can probably be smaller than the two hot wires.

 

[JamesW]

The neutral can be sized based on the expected neutral current, but the neutral cannot be smaller than the minimum required EGC.

Since the wires need to be increased due to voltage drop, the EGC (Equipment Grounding Conductor aka ground wire) must also be upsized accordingly.

Sizing of Equipment Grounding Conductor

The equipment grounding conductor is sized based on the Overcurrent Protection Device (OCPD) protecting the conductors of the electrical circuit.

Essentially, the circuit breaker or fuse size ahead of the circuit or feeder determines the size of the EGC to be used.

Note: The 2020 NEC® book text in 250.122(B) shows this as a new code section which is incorrect. This is a revision of the existing section.

Often, the ungrounded conductors of a circuit must be increased in size in order to be able to sufficiently carry the load.

The two most common reasons an ungrounded circuit conductor is increased in size are:

Voltage drop.

Longer runs of wire results in greater impedance which means less current at the load end of the wire where the equipment is connected.

Conditions of use (how the conductor is installed or used).

This includes things like the ambient temperature around the wire and number of current carrying conductors in the raceway.

These conditions may warrant the need to increase the size of a conductor.

In the 2011 NEC®, the code language in 250.122(B) required that any time an ungrounded conductor of a circuit was increased in size (for any reason); the equipment grounding conductor of the circuit was also to be increased in size, the same proportional amount.

This code language was restrictive and unnecessary which prompted a change in the 2014 code cycle.

In the 2014 NEC®, the section was revised to read as follows:

2014 Code Language:

250.122(B). Where ungrounded conductors are increased in size from the minimum size that has sufficient ampacity for the intended installation, wire-type equipment grounding conductors, where installed, shall be increased in size proportionately according to the circular mil area of the ungrounded conductors.

The key words in the above 2014 revision are "the minimum size that has sufficient ampacity for the intended installation".

Increasing an ungrounded conductor in size because of conditions of use does not necessarily create the need to also increase the equipment grounding conductor of the circuit.

If it has been determined that a 6 AWG copper ungrounded circuit conductor is the smallest size wire that can carry a 20 amp load after applying adjustment factors for high ambient temperature, then the 6 AWG conductor is now "the minimum size that has sufficient ampacity for the intended installation".

According to the 2014 code language, if the 6 AWG conductor is connected to a 20-amp overcurrent device, the minimum required size copper equipment grounding conductor (12 AWG per Table 250.122) can still perform to carry 20 amps of ground fault current under these circumstances.

On the other hand, an increase in the size of an ungrounded circuit conductor because of voltage drop, creates the need to also increase the size of the equipment grounding conductor of the circuit.

If there is significant impedance in an ungrounded conductor because of voltage drop at the end of a long run of wire, then it won’t perform well.

The same issue occurs with the equipment grounding conductor.

Installing an equipment grounding conductor of the proper size ensures an effective ground-fault current path.

An increase in the size of the equipment grounding conductor means less resistance.

This results in the overcurrent device tripping quicker during a ground-fault condition.

The above concept is the similar in the 2020 NEC®, but with a few additions.

Now, if ungrounded conductors are increased in size “for any reason” besides ambient temperature correction factors required in 310.15(B) or adjustment factors required when there are more than three current-carrying conductors per 310.15(C), wire-type equipment grounding conductors, must be increased in size proportionately to the increase in circular mil area of the ungrounded conductors.

“For any reason” could apply to a situation where the ungrounded conductors were increased in size from 2 AWG to 1 AWG because the electrician was out of 1 AWG wire.

 

[malimited]

The voltage drop calculation depends on the actual current and not necessarily the rated ampacity of the wires.

What is the total expected load for 240 volts and for 120 volts?

The ground and neutral can probably be smaller than the two hot wires.

• The Pool Pump uses 240v, 10 amps electricity
• Gas pool heater uses 240v, 3 amps of electricity
• Pool Lights use 12v, 3.5 watts each
• Salt Water Chlorinator uses 240v, approx 5-8 amps of electricity.

 

[ChrisABS]

Just a heads up. The OmniPL is only rated for copper conductors. Make sure your power to the Omni is copper.

 

[JamesW]

• Pool Lights use 12v, 3.5 watts each
• Salt Water Chlorinator uses 240v, approx 5-8 amps of electricity.

Pool lights are 120 to the transformer, which is what matters.

The current (amperage) is total light wattage/120 volts.

The SWG is 1 amp at 240 volts.

The 5 to 8 amps is at 24 volts dc, which is less than 200 watts.

200watts/240 volts is 0.833 amps.

You will also have a 15 amp outlet available for 120 volts.

 

[JamesW]

For 20 amps, you can use #8 wire at 200 feet.

So, (2) #8 AWG hot wires (Black), (1) #10 AWG Neutral (White)², (1) #10 AWG ground (green).

For #8 (75 degree C) wire, you can use a 50 amp breaker.

Note₁: Verify with an electrician before deciding on a final plan.

Note₂: A #10 Neutral is OK up to 8 amps for the 120 volt service.

Note₃: You should use a subpanel at the equipment pad with individual GFCI Breakers for the individual pieces of equipment.

 

[JamesW]

Pool Lights use 12v, 3.5 watts each

Do you mean 35 watts each?

(3) 35 watt lights (105 watts) will take 115 volts at about 0.913 amps.

How many lights?

 

[JamesW]

• 120V lights MUST BE connected to a Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter (GFCI), with an appropriately rated circuit breaker.

Refer to FIGURE 1 (US Installs) below.

• The low-voltage transformer, and/or junction box, shall be located at least 8-inches (20.3 cm) above the maximum water level and at least four 4-inches (10.2 cm) above the ground level or pool/spa deck, whichever provides the greater elevation.

Refer to FIGURE 4 (US Installs) on page 5.

• The junction box shall be no less than 4 feet (1.2 m) from the inside wall of the pool/spa; unless separated from the pool/spa by a solid fence, wall or other permanent barrier.

Refer to FIGURE 4 (US Installs) on page 5.

• Bond the light fixture to all other metallic items within 5 feet (1.5 m) of the pool/spa, using a #8 AWG bond wire.

The bonding lug is located at the rear of the niche.

Refer to FIGURE 4 (US Installs) on page 5.

• If non-metallic conduit is used, a #8 AWG bonding/grounding wire must be installed through the conduit from the Junction Box to the bonding/grounding lug inside the niche.

Seal the bonding/grounding connection with a proper sealant to protect the connection from potential corrosion.

Refer to FIGURE 4 (US Installs) on page 5.

• The niche must be installed so that the top edge of the light lens, when installed, is at least 18-inches (45.7 cm) below the maximum water level. Refer to FIGURE 4 (US Installs) on page 5.

 

[JamesW]

So, (2) #8 AWG hot wires (Black), (1) #10 AWG Neutral (White), (1) #10 AWG ground (green).

Due to the distance and assuming a 15 amp outlet that might be loaded up to 12 to 13 amps, the Neutral and Ground should probably also be #8 AWG.

So, that is (4) #8 AWG wires at 200 feet.

 

[malimited]

I have 3 ColorLogic 320 lights, they are all independently run in different conduit and all meet up in a single location.

How do I connect all 3 lights to my Omni PL?

Do I tie all 6 wires (2 from each light) PLUS an additional 2 wires, making the total to 8, then connect the new 2 wires to the transformer?

I've created a video to help explain better.

 

[ajw22]

https://www.intermatic.com/Product/PJB4175

Run the 3 light conduits and a conduit from the transformer into the junction box.

Connect the 3 light wires and the transformer wire together using a wire nut or Wago Gel Box.

Gelbox (207-1332) | WAGO USA

Gelbox; Branch; for cables; with gel; 221, 2x73 Series; max. 4 mm² connectors; without splicing connectors; Size 2; gray (4055143998017) Online at WAGO USA!

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