Need new new timer & GFCI breaker...am I 115 or 230?

[borjis]

I have a disconnected Intermatic timer, the plate says it's an E10694

Pretty sure by the look it's seen better days and would like to replace it.

Is that a T104? I didn't see T104 anywhere on it.

I'm not sure if I'm 115v or 220v. my pump and gas heater will do both.

Here is a photo of the sub-panel equipment breaker box, I'd like to replace that with a Siemens
GFCI breaker...any idea which one I need? I know it's a BR fitted one but
again not sure if I'm 115v or 220v.

The wires coming in from the top are from the timer box. There is one white wire
then 1 black wire with a wire nut that goes to the two black wires coming in the sub panel shown.

Behind the timer box the wires come in from the house circuit breaker panel.

The lower right wires go to the heater. The lower left/bottom to the pump motor.

 

[Kiss4aFrog]

That is 240 volt. The two 120 volt breakers are tied together. In a perfect world it would have been easier if then ran two of the same color wire to the "load" as it would be easier to ID it as 240 volt.

You would be looking at something like this to replace it. BUT ... you should still take a meter to it to make sure. That or you need to have photos of the main box and every junction to "here".

 

[borjis]

Thanks!

I'm not seeing a neutral bar for the GFCI to connect to...is a GFCI breaker possible in this panel?

Would a T104 intermatic timer work? I know the old one is bad...it's missing some connectors
and was probably disconnected for a reason.

Would this one work? (I have an enclosure)
Intermatic T100 Series 40 Amp 208-277 Volt DPST Time Switch Mechanism-T104MD89 - The Home Depot

 

[Kiss4aFrog]

Re: Need new new timer & GFCI breaker...am I 115 or 230?

The T104 should work on 240 (220).

Warning, I'm electircal schooled but NOT an electrician.

The GFCI white wire would go to the bus the green wires are connected to.

This diagram is what I found on how it would be connected to a T104.

Please see if someone else agrees or disputes the info before using it.

- - - Updated - - -

You also have to look at load. The present breaker is 20 amp on EACH leg. That would trip at 20 amps not 40. If you replace it with a 40 amp 240 (220) volt breaker you are doubling the amperage it's going to trip at. You want to make sure you need 20 or 40 amps and that the wiring is up to a 40 amp load if you go with a higher amperage breaker.

 

[Agent99]

If you want/need a 240 V GFCI, then you need to purchase a 240 V GFCI and guess what, it comes with a 'load neutral' to properly protect each 120 V leg.

You are correct in that there is no (obvious from the pics) neutral in that box so you cannot properly install a GFCI.

The above advice to connect the white neutral from the GFCI to the equipment (green) ground is not only completely wrong but not safe.

 

[borjis]

I guess I won't replace that breaker then. Last thing I want is
an improperly wired setup. My last house didn't have gfci on the pump either. oh well.

I'm going to remove the service covers for the heater and pump and check how those
are wired to confirm the 240v.

Does equipment wired at 240v decrease the draw/lower power bill vs 120v?

It looks like it had been wired with the timer first then to the sub panel breaker is that ok
to do? The feed to the timer is on a breaker as well on the house main panel.

should that be wired same way as diagram above?

 

[Agent99]

That is 240 volt. The two 120 volt breakers are tied together. In a perfect world it would have been easier if then ran two of the same color wire to the "load" as it would be easier to ID it as 240 volt.

While I agree, it is perfectly normal and accepted to run a white as the second hot in a 240 V installation. Any #/2 romex cable is only going to have white and black. At least some red tape was put on the white wire to reidentify it as a hot.

 

[Agent99]

I guess I won't replace that breaker then. Last thing I want is
an improperly wired setup. My last house didn't have gfci on the pump either. oh well.

I'm going to remove the service covers for the heater and pump and check how those
are wired to confirm the 240v.

Does equipment wired at 240v decrease the draw/lower power bill vs 120v?

I have no GFCI protecting my pumps either. Last I knew, code did not require such a thing but it isn't a bad idea although I don't think it is necessary. What I do think is a great idea is to add surge protection on your house main panel and/or the pool-subpanel and/or at least the breaker that runs your (sensitive) VS pump.

No to your last question. 240 V does draw half the current of 120 V for the same load but for items (motors/pumps) that run on dual voltage, they are simply wired differently inside the motor to the point where the motor doesn't know or care if you're sending 240 V or 120 V into it: i.e. the pump will draw the same power. The dual voltages that some items use is purely for human convenience.

 

[borjis]

I don't have a vs...was just thinking of future needs.

Should I wire the new timer before or after the sub panel equipment breaker?

 

[Agent99]

The breaker always FEEDS equipment. So run the wires from the breaker to the timer and then from the timer to the pump. The time is just a fancy switch, right?

I'm not quite sure how you'd wire in the timer BEFORE the breaker...where would the wires come from??

 

[borjis]

Here's the motor with the service cover off...definitely 230v

 

[borjis]

I'm not quite sure how you'd wire in the timer BEFORE the breaker...where would the wires come from??

This would better explain my thought....I'm pretty sure this is the way it was wired before (see photo)

The empty top box...that's where the T104 timer sits (i just removed it) coming through the wall within the timer box, that
comes from the house breaker named "POOL"

below that is the sub-panel breaker.

See how the black & ground wire nuts are in the timer box?

It would seem to be much easier to use the pre-existing wire to have the timer
in the top box (as it was) then feed the sub panel breaker below it no?

Otherwise I would need to use wire nuts in the bottom box to connect new wires to reach to the timer box, then bring
them from the timer back down again.

 

[Agent99]

Okay, I see your thought process after studying your pic there.

The feeder for the small sub-panel comes through your Intermatic box.

Then I see the wires from the breaker head off to the right there from the sub-panel and I'm guessing it heads to your pump. (I also see some wires coming out of that line and heading into that conduit in the lower left so maybe I'm wrong that that line heading to your pump. Where does that line go?).

So to put your pump on the timer, which is just a fancy switch, you need to go from the breaker to the timer and then from the timer to the pump. Logically, that is how it is done. Just keep that flow in mind and don't let the actual physical location of things throw you off...if that is what's happening here.

Is all that clear?

 

[borjis]

The lower right goes to the heater. The lower left to the pump motor.

The way all the wires are already in place it makes more sense to go from:

1. House breaker to timer.

2. Timer to sub panel breaker.

3. Sub panel breaker to pump + heater

This way I have very little re wiring to do.

Is that just not the right way thanks to the way the previous owner had it setup?

(I wouldn't be surprised lol)

 

[borjis]

Though I'll need to do extra wiring to make this work, it would be better as you said
to just have the timer be last in the chain so that it acts as a switch to the heater and pump.

Picking up some 12 guage wire to get this done.

Also I just noticed the old timer that appeared broken is actually for 115v! So that must have
been disconnected long ago. I can't imagine running a pool for so many years like the previous
owner did and manually turning it off and on every day.

 

[Agent99]

So it appears from your pics that the 20 A breaker is connecting to your heater FIRST...the lower right conduit. Then from the heater the wires are fed back through that same conduit, back into the small sub-panel and then down the lower-left conduit to your pump? Is that right?

That is a little bit strange if that is exactly how it is done but perhaps there is a reason lost in history. Most breakers have the ability to attach two wires so I'm not sure why it was done this way. You may not need to buy any wire as you could simply remove the wire from the heater that goes all the way to the pump, cut it shorter, then attach it directly to the breaker. So you could have two red wires on the left breaker and two black wires on the right breaker. That breaker looks very new...I'd bet quite a bit it can handle two wires no problem and is even designed that way. Maybe back up and take one more shot to gather in more of your equipment and post.

Also, make sure you have a green wire wire heading to your pump...looks like it...just making sure. Oh, and if you do adjust the heater to pump wires, make sure the green wire connects to the bar in the sub-panel along with the other green wires.

It doesn't appear that there is a green wire connected to the Intermatic metal box. That box needs one. Perhaps that bare metal wire coming from behind the box is kinda sorta connected there via the strain relief attached to the hole/knock-out but I can't tell. Check on this.

I'm also not a fan of seeing that yellow crimp-on solderless connector being used for the black wire on the small sub-panel. I'd remove it and connect the wire there directly as was done for the white wire. Perhaps there is a good reason for it but it doesn't look obvious to me.

 

[borjis]

Yes that's it. To the heater then to the pump in series.

The breaker does look new and I was pleased to see how new looking the pump motor looked when I removed the service cover.
Though I wish the pump was 1/2 hp instead of 1.5...seems over kill for my pool

I was planning on grounding the timer to the ground bar as you suggest and removing that connector on the black wire to the breaker as well.

At this point I think I'll leave the wiring "as is" and just buy 1 foot of Red, 1 foot of black & 1 foot of green 12 gauge wire to get the timer in.


I've seen all kinds of weird-ness in this house since moving in. None of the bathrooms have GFCI outlets! (no gfci breakers in main panel either) Gonna remedy that too asap.
Though all the kitchen counter outlets are gfci outlets.

 

[Agent99]

I was rereading how you want to wire things and I don't think I'd do it that way. From the house breaker, the wire should go to the sub-panel...like it is right now..from the timer box to the sub-panel. I don't think there should be anything added in-between the house breaker and its sub-panel. Your plan is to do this by placing the timer there. This sounds strange to me because if there is a problem with the pump or heater that causes an overcurrent, the breaker in the sub-panel will trip. However, the timer is not on this breaker (it is on a different one) yet it works with the sub-panel's breaker so the timer will still be on (although it won't switch anything since the breakers are thrown). If the timer is on the sub-panel's breaker, then if something happens, the whole pump/timer/heater gets shut down. This sounds safer to my ears.

What I would do:

Leave the sub-panel wired as is (change out that yellow connector...I think the black wire there is stranded wire and not solid core...stranded can be a little more difficult to wrap around a screw like that but it can be done if you twist it well and loop the wire with the turn of the screw and not against it such that it would unravel). Pretend like the wire from the house panel is a solid unbroken (no wire nuts) wire going straight to the sub-panel.

Pull the extra superfluous wire from the heater conduit and leave it hanging out of the sub-panel. No reason to pull it from the pump conduit. Of course, disconnect it from the heater. I wonder how it looks there?

Assuming an installed timer, now run the pump red/black wire to the timer, cut it to length, and install it. Run the green to the bar.

Now here is a question for you. Do you want the pump AND the heater on the timer? Honestly, I don't think it matters. It might be safer to put the heater on the timer and in that way, there is no way to turn on the heater without the pump also on. That is a good thing. FWIW, I have my pump on a timer but the heater is separate. Since my heater is turned on manually, this is no big deal to me. I'm not sure it matters much to the heater either if its electronics are turned off and on with the pump. Your call here.

Heater on with pump on: You will need to disconnect the heater from the breakers and wire nut two new longer wires to reach the timer. The green can stay as is. Install the heater wires on the timer.
From the timer, you need to run a red/black to the breaker. This will feed electricity to run the timer AND feed the power to the pump and heater through the switch of the timer. You'll only have one red and one black on the breaker. Done.

Heater separate from the pump operation: Leave everything as is for the heater wire. From the timer, you need to run a red/black to the breaker. This will feed electricity to run the timer AND feed the power to the pump through the switch of the timer. You'll have two red and two black wires on the breaker. Done.

Now I've purposely left out the details of the timer since you don't have it yet. You need to decide if you want the pump and heater to be on the timer or not. And we need to see what timer you end up getting. I believe most Intermatic timers will fit in that box. They kind of made the box universal. I used an EH-40 Water Heater timer for my (booster) pump but they have all kinds.

Also, I think you're going to need more than 1 foot of each colored wire but if you do it as I suggest, the wire between the heater and the pump is probably long enough to do everything I've suggested...just a guess.

If this is sounding tedious and complicated to you, I suggest you hire a pro or find a friend comfortable with electricity to help you. I'd do it for you in a flash if you weren't so far away. Actually, I'd coach you and then you'll be that much more educated next time. There is only so much I can do for you from here. I hope all this helps. If you just focus and think it through and follow the electricity a bit like how water flows, I think you'll see the light so to speak.

 

[borjis]

now that I know I have 230v setup, I'm getting an Intermatic T104 timer. (40 amp rated, 230v)

I would like the pump and gas heater both on the timer just for extra safety even though the heater probably won't come on without water pressure.

So you suggest:

House Breaker
to
Sub-Panel breaker
to
Timer
to
Heater & pump (both on their own independent wire connections to/joining at the timer.

That sounds good. I've done a lot of basic home wiring at my old house and know how to wire up gfci's properly. even fixed the gfci function on the pool light at old house.


I suspect the "in series" wired setup it has right now is just the pump wires connecting on the heater where you wire power to.
and I wouldn't put it past the previous owner to have done something not recommended like that.

I'll take a photo of where all that wiring goes into the heater to confirm.

 

[danpik]

If you want/need a 240 V GFCI, then you need to purchase a 240 V GFCI and guess what, it comes with a 'load neutral' to properly protect each 120 V leg.

Just to clarify something here...The neutral on a 240 GFCI has nothing to do with protection of the circuits. It simply serves as a reference point for the test feature. When the test button is pressed, it shunts a current flow to the neutral, causing a change in the current flow between the two hot legs.

Under normal operating conditions, the GFCI monitors the current flow in both hot legs and calculates the trip point if it senses a change in current flow from either one. A 240 GFCI, at least the old ones, will/would work with the neutral unhooked. The test feature is the only thing that would not work.