Need new motor. Variable speed with salt chlorinators?

[happf]

The time has come. After 10+ years, my pool pump motor is making horrible sounds. 1hp single speed, Starite PEA6E-124L pump, 12,000 gallon pool, 1.5" piping, cartidge filter, and an aqua rite salt chlorinator. No other features, no water falls, no automatic pool cleaners, no solar hot water, nothing. I would replace/install myself.

Was thinking about a two speed but then need a new two speed timer and then I'm not really saving much over a variable speed.

So I've been researching variable speeds all weekend and I think I've narrowed it down to two models. The biggest headache seems to be salt chlorinators. I've read about current sensing relays, but so far, I've yet to see a single well described setup, and I feel it's more people read about it, and keep passing that idea along (like me now too), then it actually being implemented. I'm amazed by the lack of built in support for salt chlorinators in many of these pumps that come with their own timers. Are people really also then installing new "smart" control systems? Are current sensing relay 'hacks' really common?

I've also read ideas of just leaving the salt chlorinator on 24/7 and letting the flow sensor trigger it, but don't like that idea.

So to try and keep things simple, I've narrowed it down to either just getting a new variable speed motor, century v-green 165 or 270, or a whole new pump, jandy VSFHP165JEP or VSFHP270JEP. These are the only ones that some models have a builtin auxiliary relay. It looks like the v-green square flange will mount on my existing starite pump.

But there's always a catch. The smaller 1.65 hp v-green doesn't have the auxiliary relay to trigger my salt chlorinator, the 270 does. I think it's the same with the jandy, but hard to tell. Is jandy just the century motors attached to a pump? I see pics of the jandy 1.65 and I see two wiring ports on the case, but their instruction manual does not specifically state which models have the auxiliary relay.

So I'm torn on what to do

1) Cheapest route is get the v-green 165, pick a low speed but still enough flow for the salt, disable onboard timer, and then just continue to use my existing timer. When I need to clean the pool, I can still manually override on the v-green for full power.
2) Get the v-green 270 and rewire my salt chlorinator to run from it's aux relays.

If I end up going the v-green 270, should I just spend the money then and get a whole new pump, the jandy VSFHP270JEP ? I like that they state I can move the onboard timer to the wall. Don't know if I really want the timer getting rained on constantly here in FL. I 'think' I can also remotely mount the v-green timer?

Another big question I have is, why all these large hp numbers? I currently have just 1hp. Is there really any savings in getting a 2.7hp motor that at it's slowest, it still 3/4 hp? Even the smaller ones are still 1.65hp! I do see smaller 1hp/.25hp models, but none of them have an auxillary relay.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Hap,

Welcome to TFP... a great place to find the answers to all your pool equipment questions, whether you live near Mickey or not...

Variable Speed pumps really should be called Variable Horsepower pumps.. The listed HP is the max HP and not something to worry about. You just use the amount of HP that you need. Your car may have 200 HP, but you don't really use it all.. ever...

My small pool has a 3 HP pump that runs at about 1/4 of a HP, or less, 99.9% of the time. I also have two rent houses with the same pump and both of them only have 1.5" plumbing.. They have been working just fine for the over four years...

From your list above I would go for the Jandy, if it has the external control relay.. The only downside I see is that the pump must be running at 1725 rpm for the relay to kick in and there is no way to adjust it.

I suspect your flow switch will close at about 1000 to 1200 rpm, so that means you will be running faster than you have too to close the switch which will slightly increase your electrical costs.

Another option, which most people do, is to use your current mechanical timer to control the power to the SWCG and use the VS pump's control panel to control the pump. For example... Schedule your pump to run from 8 am until 8 pm and then set the mechanical timer to run from 9 am until 7 pm.. this allows some room for error if the two clocks are not in sync.

Thanks for posting,

Jim R.

 

[happf]

From your list above I would go for the Jandy, if it has the external control relay.. The only downside I see is that the pump must be running at 1725 rpm for the relay to kick in and there is no way to adjust it.

I suspect your flow switch will close at about 1000 to 1200 rpm, so that means you will be running faster than you have too to close the switch which will slightly increase your electrical costs.

Good point! I've read through both the v-green and jandy manuals and something I forgot to mention, as you pointed out, the jandy's auxiliary relay is LOCKED to 1725rpm. The v-green 270 allows me to set at what rpm it triggers the auxillary relay.

If I just put a variable speed motor on my existing pump, what about the existing impeller and diffuser sized for 1hp? Would I need to change them to a model more suited for variable speed motor? I'd read elsewhere that people that replace 1hp motors with 3/4hp motors (but nothing else) burn the 3/4 hp motor out because of the mismatched impellers.

What kind of impellers do variable speed pumps have?

Another option, which most people do, is to use your current mechanical timer to control the power to the SWCG and use the VS pump's control panel to control the pump. For example... Schedule your pump to run from 8 am until 8 pm and then set the mechanical timer to run from 9 am until 7 pm.. this allows some room for error if the two clocks are not in sync.

You're right, I'd read of that approach too and forgot to mention it. Just have to deal with keeping two clocks sync'd, rewiring inside the timer so the pump gets constant 220, power outages on the mechanical timer, etc, and that the flow switch never fails and gets stuck on (does that happen?).

Also, if I'm ever working manually on the pump, chlorinator, etc, then I need to constantly be flipping two switches and remembering to keep both in sync. I can picture myself going to clean the filter, turning off the pump, but leaving the chlorinator on, and relying on the flow switch to turn it off. I would prefer to keep it all tied to a single timer.


Thanks for the advice!

 

[Jimrahbe]

Hap,

The danger of having your SWCG explode is rare... but that does not mean it has not happened..

In the old days, when everyone used a single speed pump, the pump and the SWCG's control box were both run off the same timer. This was the Primary safety device to prevent the cell from generating chlorine with the pump off.. The flow switch was always the Secondary safety device...

Even when using a VS pump, you still need both a Primary safety device that removes the power from the cell's power supply, as well as a Secondary safety device, the flow switch...

Some people with VS pumps only use the flow switch and because nothing happens they think that is ok. It is "ok" in the same way you can disconnect your car's airbags and still drive the car.. but what happens on the day you need the airbags??? Not really "ok"..

Sorry, but I am not really a pump expert and have no idea about the impeller vs. pump questions..

Let's see if one our pump guys can chime in...

Thanks,

Jim R

 

[CJadamec]

VS pump impellers are rated for the HP of the motor when bought as a new pump. So a 3 HP intelliflo has a 3HP impeller on it.

If you swap your motor out to a VS motor there is no reason to change the impeller of your pump unless for some reason it is damaged. You can't hurt a motor by having an undersized impeller. The only time you run into a problem is when you have an impeller rated for more HP than the motor.

As Jim has said the most common way to turn the SWG on and off in your setup is to use the mechanical timer and setting the pump schedule to match it. Unless you like tinkering with electronics there is no reason to get any fancier than that.

 

[happf]

VS pump impellers are rated for the HP of the motor when bought as a new pump. So a 3 HP intelliflo has a 3HP impeller on it.

If you swap your motor out to a VS motor there is no reason to change the impeller of your pump unless for some reason it is damaged. You can't hurt a motor by having an undersized impeller. The only time you run into a problem is when you have an impeller rated for more HP than the motor.

As Jim has said the most common way to turn the SWG on and off in your setup is to use the mechanical timer and setting the pump schedule to match it. Unless you like tinkering with electronics there is no reason to get any fancier than that.

So if I did go the route of just keeping the SWG on the original timer then I can really look at any variable speed pump then.

One thing I did NOT like about the jandy, was that JEP-R controller. Really, Jandy, would it have killed you to provide a few extra buttons for Start, Stop, Quick Clean, etc? Sometimes my wife or kids clean the pool filter. Now I feel like I will need to attach an instruction sheet to the wall to tell them what buttons to push just to get the darn pump to turn off. That's assuming I get the 270 and wire the SWG into the auxiliary relay. Otherwise, I'll need to add extra instructions to tell them to remember to turn off the SWG too and then back on.

I look at other motor/pump combos, but frustrations with them too.

For example, the Hayward SP2303VSP MaxFlo VS. I like the controller, seems a little friendlier, nice convenient buttons to stop/resume and quick clean. Shouldn't need to worry about anybody accidentally changing a program or switching the pump to a fixed speed. But then .... aaarggh. No battery backup? Seriously? I will need to reprogram it every time the power goes out? I read of people having issues with their haywards after power issues.

The only motor so far that does everything ideally I'd like is that century v-green 270. Nice controller, plenty of buttons, easy on/off/clean, aux relay (for any rpm), 5yr battery backup, and I can even remotely mount the display without needing to buy another kit. I would have to 'hope?' that it works properly with my 1hp impeller. Can I change that battery (nothing in instructions about that). Downside is I've read reports that if something goes wrong, only option is to buy a whole new v-green. Really? At least with jandy, hayward, etc, it looks like I can buy replacement controller, motor, etc.

 

[CJadamec]

If you get the right v-green motor for your current pump then it will work with your impeller just fine. Swing by inyopools they will know exactly what motor fits your pump and have great technical support. Look at the prices for those controllers and motors for the other VS pumps. Some of the parts cost more than a whole new pump.

Have you considered a pentair superflo pump? Very easy to use interface. I've never had to reprogram it once it was set at the beginning of the season. I un-wire my pump and store it inside over the winter tho. Come to think of it I think all I had to do was reset the clock all the speed setting were saved last time it I turned it on in the spring.

 

[happf]

Have you considered a pentair superflo pump? Very easy to use interface. I've never had to reprogram it once it was set at the beginning of the season. I un-wire my pump and store it inside over the winter tho. Come to think of it I think all I had to do was reset the clock all the speed setting were saved last time it I turned it on in the spring.

Yes, I have looked at the Pentair 342001 SuperFlo VS 1.5hp. It does have a friendlier controller, 24 hour memory, and I can remote mount the display, but no aux relay.

I understand that most people just wire their pumps for 24/7 and leave their SWG on the original timer, but let's face it, they only do it that way because these boneheaded companies are too stupid to provide even one single external relay. Even a single low voltage relay would be so helpful. I know they can do it and would cost them next to nothing to add. It's not right and doesn't make sense. What was simple, a single on/off is now more complicated. Most likely nothing wil go wrong, but that doesn't make it right and just because everybody does it, doesn't make it right either. It was their only choice without spending a ton more money.

Is anybody aware of any wire or terminal on any of these pumps that is hot when the motor is on that I could wire a fused relay too?

I would like to go variable speed but I would also like to keep my setup simple with a single control that anybody that walks up to it will know, oh, there's the SINGLE, one and only, OFF switch. I can't believe the Jandy JEP-R couldn't even add a single button with the word OFF.

The v-green does everything except provide replacement parts.
Everybody else (except for that jandy 270) provides replacement parts but I'm left with two disconnected systems.

I don't get these companies. Are they stupid or are they just hoping people will spend another $1000 for an unneeded automation center just to keep two things in sync?

Sorry for the rant. Am I being unreasonable? This should have been an easy decision with plenty of choices. Just amazed at what a mess these companies have made for pools.

Out of curiousity, let's assume I was building a complete new pool and all I wanted was a pump and a SWG. What would people recommend as the simplest cheapest truly INTEGRATED system to control both without getting into over the top automation systems?

 

[CJadamec]

Keeping your current mechanical timer to drive the SWG is by far the easiest and most reliable route to solve the issue. The timers have a long proven history of working without fail for decades. Lots of people are doing that way because it one of the many right ways to do it. It meets all code and design requirements of the equipment.

Automation systems are fully functional and feature packed because they cost money to design and develop. There is no market demand for a pool automation system that can only control one thing and do nothing else. There is also no benefit to design a system that is universally compatible across all systems. The goal of Jandy, Pentair, Hayward and the like is for you to buy all your stuff from them. One great way to do that is make equipment that is only compatible with stuff from the same brand. Apple has been doing it for years and it's worked out pretty well for them.

If you are handy with simple relay systems you can do what you are trying to do pretty easily for less than $50.

current sensing relay
solid state relay

With those two parts and some wire you can make it so your SWG will only turn on when your pump is above a specific RPM.

 

[Technikal]

Why do you need a 2 speed timer? With your setup, I imagine you could run on low speed all the time, except vacuuming. Get a $5 SPDT Toggle switch and some wire and you're set.

 

[CJadamec]

He is asking about switching to a variable speed motor/pump not a 2-speed pump also at the same time integrating it to control his SWG. If it was just a 2-speed pump yes a spdt switch would work just fine.

 

[happf]

He is asking about switching to a variable speed motor/pump not a 2-speed pump also at the same time integrating it to control his SWG. If it was just a 2-speed pump yes a spdt switch would work just fine.

I have actually thought about just a two speed and a switch. That was my original idea. Nobody locally carried any two speed motor. Funny though, while at pinch a penny getting the water tested, I overhead them take a call asking for a two speed (that they had none in stock), and just go into sales pitch about variable speed. It does seem like the extra cost for a variable speed still pays for itself quickly enough and I can end up with an even quieter system.

Keeping your current mechanical timer to drive the SWG is by far the easiest and most reliable route to solve the issue. The timers have a long proven history of working without fail for decades. Lots of people are doing that way because it one of the many right ways to do it. It meets all code and design requirements of the equipment.

If you are handy with simple relay systems you can do what you are trying to do pretty easily for less than $50.

With those two parts and some wire you can make it so your SWG will only turn on when your pump is above a specific RPM.

I disagree. I don't see why people would want to keep maintaining the extra timer and dealing with two sets of buttons & switches. They may be proven but they have no backup either. I don't believe for a second that if more companies offered a better timer that could also control just one single external device, that people would override their pool installer and say, please, please, don't use that feature they offer, I want you to keep that original timer because it's more reliable and I welcome the hassle of keeping two systems in sync.

The thing with a current sensing relay is that's another $80+ and then I have to fiddle with getting it set just right to trigger at the right flow. Not that big a deal, I do see others have done it, but it just feels like another hack.

Seeing as I want to keep things simple and want a single controller interface, what reason could someone provide for NOT going with the VGreen 270 (and using their aux feature) and instead going with a Hayward or Pentair and wiring a current sensing relay?

Only thing I can think of so far is that the top speed 2.7hp is way overkill and pointless for me with my 1.5" piping and I could get a smaller variable speed pump like the Pentair 342001 SuperFlo VS 1.5hp and that also has a lower speed I think. Would the pentair provide significant enough more power savings over the VGreen 270?

However, another primary reason to go with the VGreen 270, is they provide an 18month warranty even if I install while the pentair only provides a 60 day warranty. Why would I want to get a pentair and only have a 60 day warranty?

And so, I am currently leaning towards the Century VGreen 270. I have found that a replacement display is available at reasonable cost. If the motor goes though, then I have to replace the whole thing.

I think my decision now is do I spend $65 to rebuild my starite pump with a new impeller (had cracks) and diffuser (corrosion on that ring) or spend $120 and just get the Pureline PL2606 pump that comes with the Century 270 mounted and ready to go. A whole new pump for an extra $55? Why not? I was already going to replumb as I disliked what I inherited and from reading these various manuals was never setup right to begin with. I just don't know if I like that two knob approach to the basket vs a screw lid, doesn't seem very common.

Thanks everyone for your help so far. I appreciate the advice.

 

[Technikal]

Sorry to keep coming back to the 2 speed pump, but I just went through a similar analysis so it's fresh in my mind. I ended up going with a 2 speed motor over a variable speed motor or entire new pump because: The flow I needed for the SWG was essentially the same as low speed on a 2 speed pump; my swg is the primary driver of my pump run time during the season, so I wouldn't use the lower speeds of the variable options often, if at all; my current pump housing and impeller were in good shape; my current pump is a 'high head' pump and to get similar GPMs moved me away from the less expensive complete pump options; my current timers worked fine and I didn't have any pool features that would benefit from variable speed pump.

If your primary goal for looking at different options is to reduce energy use, and the VGreen motor will only trigger your SWG when it's running at 1700 rpm, I can't imagine there's much savings between that setup and a 2 speed running on low. Given that you'd be comparing a 1.5hp 2 speed pump to a 2.7hp variable speed, I'd imagine the 2 speed is more efficient. It's also pretty simple as you keep your existing timer setup and just add a hi/low switch.

I also found a few of the motors with built-in timers weren't as efficient as some of the stand-alone options. Ex - the motor on the Pureline PL2608 1.9/0.2HP runs at 3.1 amps low speed. The B2983 2.2/0.19HP motor I used runs at 1.6 amps.

In the end, it took about 2 hours to switch motors and wire the switch. Total cost was ~ $350. New motor is significantly quieter, and I see significant reductions in my energy usage.

 

[CJadamec]

When it comes to variable speed pool pump motors the motor with the HIGHER total hp number will run MORE efficiently than the lower hp motor.

Technical has a good point that limiting yourself to the 1700 rpm speed really saves you nothing when compared to a 2-speed motor. That output relay is basically useless unless you can change its trigger point.

 

[happf]

Sorry to keep coming back to the 2 speed pump, but I just went through a similar analysis so it's fresh in my mind. I ended up going with a 2 speed motor over a variable speed motor or entire new pump because: The flow I needed for the SWG was essentially the same as low speed on a 2 speed pump; my swg is the primary driver of my pump run time during the season, so I wouldn't use the lower speeds of the variable options often, if at all; my current pump housing and impeller were in good shape; my current pump is a 'high head' pump and to get similar GPMs moved me away from the less expensive complete pump options; my current timers worked fine and I didn't have any pool features that would benefit from variable speed pump.

If your primary goal for looking at different options is to reduce energy use, and the VGreen motor will only trigger your SWG when it's running at 1700 rpm, I can't imagine there's much savings between that setup and a 2 speed running on low. Given that you'd be comparing a 1.5hp 2 speed pump to a 2.7hp variable speed, I'd imagine the 2 speed is more efficient. It's also pretty simple as you keep your existing timer setup and just add a hi/low switch.

I also found a few of the motors with built-in timers weren't as efficient as some of the stand-alone options. Ex - the motor on the Pureline PL2608 1.9/0.2HP runs at 3.1 amps low speed. The B2983 2.2/0.19HP motor I used runs at 1.6 amps.

In the end, it took about 2 hours to switch motors and wire the switch. Total cost was ~ $350. New motor is significantly quieter, and I see significant reductions in my energy usage.

No problem, thanks! I looked up that B2983 motor. $324 at inyo. Might as well get that hilo switch that nicely integrates into the back cover, so another $42. I still need new impeller,diffuser, etc so another $65. So now I am at $431. And a very easy wiring job. I guess if I wanted I could wire up my own switch but then would need to make it waterproof. $42 seems worth the headache.

However, with a variable speed pump, I may be able to run as low as 1000rpm and still have SWG. I've read many reports of 1000-1400rpm still triggering the swg so I would get add'l savings. Question is does another 30-40% reduction in rpms pay for itself? And the pump is running that much quieter?

At it's simplest, $431 vs $694.

Definitely something to think about.

- - - Updated - - -

When it comes to variable speed pool pump motors the motor with the HIGHER total hp number will run MORE efficiently than the lower hp motor.

Technical has a good point that limiting yourself to the 1700 rpm speed really saves you nothing when compared to a 2-speed motor. That output relay is basically useless unless you can change its trigger point.

The VGreen 270 does let me choose the rpm for the trigger point. So if I find I can get the flow switch to trip at say 1100rpm, I can set that into the VGreen controller and get add'l savings.

- - - Updated - - -

Another thing I'm wondering and haven't asked, how well do skimmers work at low flow? Will the surface of my pool be cleaner if I run longer even at the lowest setting (600rpm without swg) and then for 4 or so hours a day, I move up to 1100 or whatever to get the SWG?

 

[CJadamec]

the difference between 1700 and 1200 rpm is about 200 watts. The difference between 1200-700 rpm is about 20 watts.

 

[happf]

the difference between 1700 and 1200 rpm is about 200 watts. The difference between 1200-700 rpm is about 20 watts.

Wow. 200 watts adds up, 20 not so much. I would probably not bother with different speeds then. The only benefit then to the variable is that I can fine tune how low I want to go.

 

[happf]

Another question about that B2983 dual speed 3600/1800 rpm motor. I see it's rated for 1.5hp and 10/1.6 amps. I assume the 1.6 amps is at the low speed. I can't find equivalents for the VGreen 270. I think it's a 2.7hp/.75 hp. What is the B2983 equivalent? Half the rpms, but 1/5 the amps? Is it a 1.5hp/.75hp or 1.5hp/.3hp? Will the VGreen 270 at 1800 rpms be more or less efficient than the dual speed at 1800? Seems pointless to get the VGreen 270 if at 1100rpm it is still going to use the same amount of power as the lower hp B2983 at 1800.

So confusing and so many parameters.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Hap,

Just to answer your rpm question... My 3 HP IntelliFlo uses 180 watts at 1200 rpm, but three times as much (600 watts) at 2000 rpm.. Three times as much, but still a pretty small amount of electrical power either way..

At 1200 rpm, a blind person would have to touch the pump to make sure it was still running. At low rpms, it is a close to silent as you can get. It sounds like a regular single speed pump when running at full speed..

If the only reason you are buying a VS pump is to cut electrical costs, then you are most likely better off with a 2-Speed pump... VS pumps have a lot of benefits, but if your pool can't use them, why pay for them?

Thanks for posting,

Jim R.

 

[Technikal]

I'd actually ordered the hi/low switch that mounts on the motor, but it was slow to ship. I started doing a bit of research and realized it wasn't complicated to add my own. My Intermatic timer housing had a 'knock out' in the box below the mechanical timers that perfectly fit the switch. I picked up the switch and the wire at Home Depot for ~ $7.

It's really too early for me to make a complete call on skimmer effectiveness at half speed, but honestly it seems to be performing exceptionally well. We're at the height of live oak leaf dropping season right now. I'm running the pump 8 hours a day on low speed. I have really deep skimmer 'nets' and am cleaning them out daily. I'm noticing a lot of leaves in the skimmer net, as well as a ton of leaves floating above the skimmer, trapper behind the weir. Maybe there's enough suction to pull the leaves into the skimmer, but not enough to cause them to sink? I'm not sure, but the pool itself looks fine, and if it can work during this time of year for me, it should be fine when I have a whole lot less junk blowing into the pool.

Noise levels are great. I can't hear it from more than a few feet away.

The Pureline pumps are appealing. The prices are great and Inyo has been top notch in all of my interactions with them. I was set to go with one of their Dual Speed ones until I compared the flow charts. I'm not sure why my pool has a high head pump, but it made me nervous to change. Going with a comparable high head dual speed or variable speed pump added significantly to the cost compared to Pureline. This was purely a cost saving exercise for me, so when I was presented with a cheaper, not very complicated and less risky option, I took it. I'm sure my pump housing will crack and impeller implode now that I've said that!