NE Pennsylvania - Choosing Builder and Pool Type

[notbaker]

Hello from Northeast Pennsylvania!

Wife and I just started looking in to getting an in-ground pool a few weeks ago. We don't have any kids yet but our siblings do. Family all lives very close to us and we were thinking it would be awesome to have a nice spot for everyone to get together and cool off in the summer. We will probably do something in the next year or two.

Experience so far
A co-worker of mine referred me to a seller / builder in the area. We did a quick visit today and received an estimate for basic installation of a Fiber Glass pool; 14'x33' IG, 13k gallons, with 3' walkways. Package seems to include everything to get it started. Came out to about $33K. This doesn't include electric run or fence installation, and i don't have details on anything other than the pool itself. The price seems okay to me but I don't really have any references to bounce off of yet. The group we saw today didn't really seem interested in visiting our property to scope anything out or lay out any plans which is definitely concerning, but maybe we're just not at that point in the process yet. They seemed more interested in getting a deposit to start the process. Seemed like a nice crew though. They have 10 negative reviews on BBB (B+), whereas their local and older competition only has 1 (A+). Unfortunately there doesn't appear to be many builders in our area.

I'm going to check with another builder or two to get a better idea of pricing and expectations. We also have a personal reference we're going to visit in the next week or so. They may recommend a builder, as they seem very happy with their pool.

There are quite a few horror stories on this forum with Fiberglass which concerns me a little bit. Every site seems to sells FG on maintenance, installation, durability and cost over the course of lifetime. With Vinyl, I worry about the cost of replacing the liner, or the upfront cost of gunite. Overall I think I'm still leaning towards FG, but maybe someone with more knowledge and experience can edge me a different direction if necessary.. I just want to avoid wrong decisions, but it sounds like a lot of it relies on the installer doing a good job.

I'll keep updating this thread until builder and pool type is chosen. Afterwards I'll probably start a design / actual build thread.

If anyone has any questions or suggestions I'm all ears. The more I know the better of I will be. I'm sure I'll be combing thru the forums for more information. Otherwise, wish me luck!

 

[jimim]

Hawley in the house. Ok so now there is 2 NEPA pools to the 10,000 Texas pools on this site!

Did you look up my builder to get in touch with him? Use the Local number not the Phili south one. Same business, run by same family and crews. you will just get senior for up here quicker to get ideas. My builder has a lot of vinyl pools in the area. Has been in business for ever. Unite aren't as many but there are 6-7 around us that i know of. We are a vinyl area overall.


Just me but I got scared of FG with our winters up here. If it moves the whole pool is moving or cracking. The repair will never look the same as original.

Good luck! PM me with any help you need.

Jim

 

[SuzfromTexas]

Hello from Northeast Pennsylvania!

Wife and I just started looking in to getting an in-ground pool a few weeks ago. We don't have any kids yet but our siblings do. Family all lives very close to us and we were thinking it would be awesome to have a nice spot for everyone to get together and cool off in the summer. We will probably do something in the next year or two.

Experience so far
A co-worker of mine referred me to a seller / builder in the area. We did a quick visit today and received an estimate for basic installation of a Fiber Glass pool; 14'x33' IG, 13k gallons, with 3' walkways. Package seems to include everything to get it started. Came out to about $33K. This doesn't include electric run or fence installation, and i don't have details on anything other than the pool itself. The price seems okay to me but I don't really have any references to bounce off of yet. The group we saw today didn't really seem interested in visiting our property to scope anything out or lay out any plans which is definitely concerning, but maybe we're just not at that point in the process yet. They seemed more interested in getting a deposit to start the process. Seemed like a nice crew though. They have 10 negative reviews on BBB (B+), whereas their local and older competition only has 1 (A+). Unfortunately there doesn't appear to be many builders in our area.

I'm going to check with another builder or two to get a better idea of pricing and expectations. We also have a personal reference we're going to visit in the next week or so. They may recommend a builder, as they seem very happy with their pool.

There are quite a few horror stories on this forum with Fiberglass which concerns me a little bit. Every site seems to sells FG on maintenance, installation, durability and cost over the course of lifetime. With Vinyl, I worry about the cost of replacing the liner, or the upfront cost of gunite. Overall I think I'm still leaning towards FG, but maybe someone with more knowledge and experience can edge me a different direction if necessary.. I just want to avoid wrong decisions, but it sounds like a lot of it relies on the installer doing a good job.

I'll keep updating this thread until builder and pool type is chosen. Afterwards I'll probably start a design / actual build thread.

If anyone has any questions or suggestions I'm all ears. The more I know the better of I will be. I'm sure I'll be combing thru the forums for more information. Otherwise, wish me luck!

Welcome, Notbaker, to TFP! You are way ahead of many people by starting here early. You'll learn what you need to know before you build. That's awesome!!

I love your idea of creating a special place for all your family! Just love that! I learned very late in life what a pool can do to bring family and friends even closer together.

I have no info to share re fiberglass pools. It seems we do see more vinyl pools on here, and I've read a lot about them. If you use TFP's method to maintain your pool water, your liner will last longer than those who use pool stores and most pool maintenance companies. There really is not question about that. It sounds like you've already found the search bar at the top of TFP pages, so you should be able to price shop for vinyl liner replacements. The fun part of that is you get to go with a whole new look for your pool. The liner choices are amazing. Many of my favorite TFP pools are liner pools.

If the group you met with got wind of you guys waiting to build, they probably didn't take it too seriously. That could be another reason to they wanted a deposit - lock you in until you are ready and then let you know in a year or 2 of the rate increases. I don't know if pre-build deposits are usual practice for Pool Builders up there.

If/when you get a detailed and itemized bid, the members here can help you know if the price really covers most everything.

As you can imagine, most pre-build staff are exceptionally nice before you sign a contract. Their interest level would be enough for me to drop them. To be fair, though, this is a very busy time of year. If you are planning to wait, you might want to call possible PB's in Sept.

I don't have a lot of faith in A+ reviews on the BBB. I've learned that after decades of research for all sorts of companies. But when I see anything less than an A or a B with 10 negative reviews.... I run as fast as I can and don't look back. That may not be fair to 100% of those companies, but that's me.

Jim has a fabulous pool build, and reading it gives you a solid picture of what all Jim knows and how he thinks. Whoever Jim recommends, I would use in a heartbeat, no questions asked! (well, almost none, Lol!!) If you haven't seen his pool build thread yet, here's the link:
New Northeastern Pa Build

We would love to know more about how you and your family would enjoy using the pool. Sports games (basketball, volleyball), swimming laps, diving and doing canonballs, diving down to find 'treasures', socializing and floating, etc. Just knowing those things can help us help you with design decisions. When you talk about family get-togethers, about how many are you talking about?

Yes, keep all your pre-build research here in one thread. It's easier for you and for all of us on TFP.

I do have a list of things to consider re Pool Builders. It's very long, so it's cafeteria style - you pick and choose what questions you want to use. Or divide up the questions in more than one meeting with a potential company. Because it's long, and this post is, too, I'll post it in the next post.

Sorry this is long.... wait til you see the PB questions list! Lol!!!

Again, welcome, and enjoy!
Suz

 

[jimim]

Suz thanks for the compliment! I'm trying. I'm getting more nervous about taking care of this thing more and more each day!

if you r looking for a next spring build my builder might be a good choice for that alone cause I know he is crushed right now. Lol

 

[SuzfromTexas]

I'm getting more nervous about taking care of this thing more and more each day!

No way!!! You are such a DIY-er, water chemistry is easy, Easy, EASY!!! And I'm proof. Besides, TFP has got your back! I'll be happy to help you with the water part as long as I don't turn Ctrav's pool green! Lol!!!

Notbaker - my apologies for the interruption, but I couldn't let that slide with Jim!

Suz

 

[SuzfromTexas]

Well, are you ready for THE List???? Take a deep breath...... and don't shoot the messenger.

I apologize it is geared more towards gunite, and nothing yet specific for fiberglass and vinyl pools. It is still a rough draft, and I haven't addressed those parts yet.

Kimkats: Quite a few PB’s don't know the actually workings for a pool and the build. They depend on the subs doing the work to know what needs to be done. Saying that, some do know the ins and outs. So long as they don't lie to you things will go good. kimkats

Gwegan: Always get bids from at least two builders, three bids is better. Try to get them to bid on roughly the same thing. I paid for a conceptual drawing and got bids off of that. Pool builders want to have use their design and choices so it is difficult to compare bids.

Prepare before the First Meeting
1. Have ready to give the PB or salesperson a copy of your property map which includes easements, etc.
2. Avoid
--- ‘package deals’ unless you have flexibility
--- Mineral system
--- fusion system
--- UV system
--- Ozone system
3. If you’ve been reading on TFP before you begin meeting with PB’s, know what you want. You can also skip some of the items below if you want to give the pool designer more freedom to create.
--- free form, rectangle, L-shape
--- approximate length and width
--- approximate depths
--- spa (raised or not; hidden or infinity), sunshelf, steps, benches, beach entry
--- how to plumb the spa; do you need blowers or not
--- water features: bubblers, sheer descents, scuppers, water and/or fire bowls, grotto, rock water wall, slide, jump rock, diving board, deck jets
? --- type of automation: PDA, through computer and cell phone
--- how to control the water features: each able to come on/off separately, grouped together, etc
--- method of chlorination: chlorine or a swg
--- type of pump: two speed, variable speed
--- heater, heat pump, or solar
--- type of filter: cartridge, sand, DE
?--- type of lighting: color shows, nicheless, standard?, white, small ones for small areas
? --- type of pool cleaner: robot, in floor system, side suction, ??? suction
--- do you want an overflow and an autofill
--- Do you want a cover for your pool?
--- Decking? Does the PB do this? Materials: concrete (brushed, stained, pea gravel, stamped, dyed, salt brushed?), pavers (flagstone, concrete, travertine, techo blocks, bluestone, etc), cool deck
--- pool finish: plaster, colored plaster, quartz, martzite?, pebble, AquaBright,

About the company
1. Years in business?
2. Who is the owner if not you?
3. Number of employees?
4. What services are provided directly by your company crews?
which will be sub'd out?
-. How long have the crews or subs worked for them?
5. Are you in the process of selling the business or transitioning any key responsibilities to someone else?
6. Average pools built in a year?
7. Any lawsuits in the last 5 years? (the PB or the company)
8. How many other jobs do you typically run at one time? At this time?
9. Please send list of references. Can we see their pools in person?
10. Run us through your process/steps during this interview stage and the build stages.

About the Pool Builder
1. How did you get into pool building?
2. Do you have direct personal experience with any parts of the build? (ie, you were first a plumber, an electrician, you built pools with your dad, etc)

Company Services
1. Do you handle landscaping, or do you have a landscaper you like to work with or recommend?
2. What Hardscape/Site Improvements are included as part of the core bid? (ie grading, drainage, etc…)
3. What brand of equipment do you use?
4. What type of water sanitization do you use? (chlorine or salt water generator)
5. What are the rebar standards you use?
6. What types of finishes do you offer? Which brands? (ie, PebbleTec, WetEdge, etc)

Responsibilities during Construction
1. If wider access is needed through the fence/gate, will you provide temporary fencing?
2. Will you repair/replace the fence if necessary to its original condition?
3. Will you repair/replace any broken concrete on sidewalks or driveways that result from construction traffic?
4. Will you repair/replace damaged lawn from construction traffic or other construction mishaps?
5. Will you repair/replace broken irrigation outside of the dig zone such as the(path leading to jobsite?
6. Will you repair/replace any broken or damaged existing incidentals on the property? (such as windows, gutters, tile, lighting, plumbing, electrical fixtures, etc)
7. Will you arrange for all utility marking?
8. Who is responsible for the repair costs of any cut or broken service lines (Cable/Phone/Gas/Power)?

Company Policies, Guarantees, Warranties
1. What kind of payment schedule will you be requesting? Make sure the payment schedule is back loaded. If you have to pay anything up it should be small. At least 10% should be payable five days after final inspection and completion of the punch list.

3. Are there any situations where you will be asking for earlier payment than what is agreed upon up front? I wouldn’t ask this, I wouldn’t want to open that door.
4. What guaranties and warranties do you provide and for how long? Get these in writing.
-- from the PB company
-- from the crews
-- from gunite/shotcrete of the pool shell, finish company, etc
-- any others
5. What are the warranties on equipment? Is there a benefit buying all one brand?

Plans, Bids/Proposals, Contract
1. Who will be doing the plans/drawings?
2. Do you have any soil concerns are there for our area, and is there anything you do to address it? (ie, high water table, bedrock, expansive clay, etc)
-. Does our area need to have the pool engineered?
3. When will we receive the plan? How do we make changes – phone, meeting, etc?
4. How many plan/drawing revisions do we get? I wouldn’t ask this. I might want more than he sets.
5. Can you provide a 3D render? Cost? I wouldn’t ask this.
6. Will you itemize your bid? Tell him you want/expect an itemized bid.
7. Ask for model numbers on all equipment listed on the bid.
8. Can you provide a sample contract with your bid submittal? I don’t get this? Mine was one and the same. My PB just sent me updates to it.
9. How do you handle change orders? Will you commit in the contract to following an in-writing change order process? I’m not sure what this is. This seems to be getting pretty legal - maybe necessary in some places. I would make sure I requested any changes via email or in writing, so you have the requests documented.
10. Will you add contract deadline with a penalty for missing it? I haven’t heard of this for residential pools.

Applications, Permits, Inspections
1. Are you familiar with our specific sub-division HOA rules and approval process?
2. Who will make the application to the HOA?
3. Do you pull all required Building Permits?
4. Will you or someone else be present for all inspections? If not, what do I need to know about the inspection process?

Licensing, Accreditation, Insurance, Safeguards for the Client **Be sure to verify these yourself
1. Are you a member of any professional pool builder organizations?
2. What is your BBB Rating? Any recent complaints? Have they been resolved?
3. How is your Credit and/or Dunn & Bradstreet rating?
4. Will you provide written Lien Releases for yourself and all sub's prior to final payment? Does this need to come much sooner?
5. Will you include a subcontractor/vendor Proof of Payment clause in the contract?
Ask the salesman or PB to provide proof for the following:
6. Do you have a current and valid Contracting License?
7. Do you carry general liability insurance? How much?
8. Do you carry workers’ compensation insurance?
9. How are your subs insured?

Project Manager’s Duties
1. Who will be in charge of the job?
2. How often will he be on-site? Is there a backup?
3. Will he be on-site to meet every sub the very first time the subs show up? This often does not happen.
4. Will he do an on-site review at completion of work with each sub crew? This often does not happen.

About the Workers/Crews
1. Will you let us review your sub-contractor selection? Ask this only if you have knowledge of the sub-contractors in your area.
2. If I have a particular vendor or sub I want used for a specific job like gunite or surface finish, how is that handled? You can request a sub, and the PB may even say ‘yes’, but who actually shows up at the last minute may be a different story.
3. Do you provide a port-a-john during construction? Do people really ask this?
4. Will the crews protect the house, windows, and patio from all concrete/plaster overspray with plastic sheeting or tarps?
5. How often will the crews clean-up debris? Varies widely from 2-3 times during the build.
6. Will you guarantee that the front yard is always free of trash and debris at the end of the day? This rarely happens on a daily basis. Ask the PB if you have a HOA which is extremely picky.
7. Will you do a thorough clean-up at the end of the job, including a magnetic sweep for nails, etc?
8. What hours will the workers usually be on-site? Any weekends?

After the Drawing and Bid are Submitted
-. Is there any part of the job that you are un-sure of or have reservations about?
-. Is there anything jumping out at you which we could change or do differently as a money saver?
-. How many skimmers and where?
-. How will the skimmers be plumbed?
-. Drain set up? Round, rectangle
-. How will the drains be plumbed?
-. How many returns and where?
-. How many lights and where? What kind?
-. How deep for the sun shelf?
-. What size for the equipment pad?
-. The spa
--- how many jets
--- position of the jets
--- heights of the benches (measure bodies of people using it)
--- standard or deep well
--- speeds of the jets (slow, medium, turbulent)

 

[jimim]

Highjack time. Sorry! Suz look st my thread about my sister in laws pool today if u get a chance.

 

[notbaker]

Sorry I'm late! No worries about hijacking the thread.

Jim - I'm going to see if I can get the wife to reach out to your builder today when she's back from running errands. Thank you so much for replying to my PM and your post here.

Suz - I've never really looked at BBB reviews so I was unsure how to take their rating system. I agree though, ten negative reviews is definitely concerning and I probably won't be going back. We met with the other builder on Sunday and overall I'd say it was a much better experience. After some talking it sounds like we're going to do a Vinyl Liner pool. Undecided on the builder still.

We would love to know more about how you and your family would enjoy using the pool. Sports games (basketball, volleyball), swimming laps, diving and doing canonballs, diving down to find 'treasures', socializing and floating, etc. Just knowing those things can help us help you with design decisions. When you talk about family get-togethers, about how many are you talking about?

General family usage would likely be socializing and floating. My wife and I would be doing more physical usage like swimming laps and maybe diving. Basketball and volleyball would be awesome, but I worry they wouldn't be done often. Diving would be nice. I'm going to check with our home insurer to see how that could effect our rates before considering it. Wife is also a little apprehensive about putting a diving board in because she's short and also seems to want more leisure space than deep water. I'll talk to her a little bit more about it. I have great memories when I was little using the diving board at a local pool.

We live in a quiet little development. There's 6 of us in the development, within walking distance from one another. I would say 4-6 people enjoying the pool would be pretty common on weekends / weeknights. I can't imagine us having more than 10 people at any point. We do have quite a bit of family in the area. If by some chance we had everyone from the area over, there'd be about 20 people.

We're thinking about doing a cabana pavilion kind of thing to have a place to eat / sit in the shade. Run some power to it to hook up laptops, phones, speakers or w/e. Privacy fence or an aluminum fence with a good amount of landscaping to hide from the neighbors.

I'll get some pictures of the spot we're thinking about when I get home from work today as long as the weather allows it.

Well, are you ready for THE List???? Take a deep breath...... and don't shoot the messenger.

You were not joking. That's quite the list, but all great things to take in to consideration. Thank you so much!!!!!