mystery sediment identification

[JasonParker]

Hi TFP friends and experts,
Just recently I'm seeing this strange sediment in front of my returns. This is in an indoor SWG pool which runs year round and has ideal chemistry. I backwash regularly and the pressure is good as well.

Any idea what it might be?

Jason

 

[setsailsoon]

Done any maintenance on equipment lately?

 

[JamesW]

Are the particles attracted to a magnet?

Is there any building up in the salt cell?

Is the heater manifold cast iron?

Does a magnet stick to the heater manifold?

 

[JasonParker]

Done any maintenance on equipment lately?

Chris,
sure, I feel like I always am.
I replaced the impeller yesterday.
I replaced all the seals, including the upgraded US Seal for the impeller shaft a few weeks ago.
I replaced the spider gasket in my Hayward sand filter about six weeks ago.
I replaced the pump motor a year ago with a V-Green 165.

Jason

 

[JasonParker]

Are the particles attracted to a magnet?

Is there any building up in the salt cell?

Is the heater manifold cast iron?

Does a magnet stick to the heater manifold?

James,

The heater manifold is the high strength polymer material offered on the Raypak 206A.
The heat exchange is made of copper.
The salt cell is relatively clean. I did a full cleaning on it about three weeks ago.
I'll double check on the particles and a magnet.

Jason

 

[JamesW]

The salt cell is relatively clean. I did a full cleaning on it about three weeks ago.

Is it clean now?

What it looked like 3 weeks ago is not going to help much unless the problem started over 3 weeks ago.

The heater manifold is the high strength polymer material offered on the Raypak 206A.

Can you show a picture of the heater?

Does it have a Protek shield anode?

What is the exact model number?

 

[JasonParker]

James,
The salt cell is clean now. When minerals build up it looks nothing like the type of sediment I'm getting now. The sediment has blues and greens in it whereas the mineral buildup on the salt cell is only white. The problem of the sediment did begin longer than three weeks ago.

I have Raypak P-R206-EN-C. It doesn't show a burner orifice size as part of the model number. However, I'm over 6,000 ft elevation so the table on the label shows the burner orifice size as .0635.

I do not have a Protek Shield anode but I have definitely been wanting something like that. I didn't know Raypak makes one and that it can be bolted at the underside of the manifold.

I don't have a photo of the unit and it's dark outside. What are you looking to see, specifically?

thanks,
Jason

 

[JamesW]

I suspect that it is coming from the heater, but if that is the case, then the particles will be accumulating in the cell plates.

When is the last time you actually looked in the cell?

What is the chemistry?

What is the highest the water temperature has been?

What is the CSI and what is the highest that it has been?

 

[JasonParker]

thanks again, James.

I looked in the cell when I cleaned it three weeks ago. In the clear housing that the cell sits in I do see some evidence of that sediment. Not much though. I can remove the cell tomorrow and examine it more carefully.

The sediment is not attracted to a magnet.

The chemistry is
100 total hardness
1 PPM TC
1 PPM FC
120 TA
0 CYA
7.4 pH
89 degrees temp. Constant. Year round.
CSI - I only measure total hardness as opposed to calcium hardness

 

[JamesW]

You should track the CSI as it is important for a plaster pool and it is relevant to the identification of flakes.

Put a drop of acid on some flakes to see what happens.

If it is calcium carbonate, then it will fizz as it releases carbon dioxide.

Put some flakes in some distilled water to see if they dissolve and then measure the TA (Total Alkalinity) and CH (Calcium Hardness) of the water.

Measure the mass of the flakes before and after they dissolve and calculate the expected increase in TA and CH if the flakes are calcium carbonate.

For example, if you dissolve 0.5 gram of flakes in 1 liter of distilled water, the TA and CH should increase by 500 ppm each.

 

[setsailsoon]

Chris,
sure, I feel like I always am.
I replaced the impeller yesterday.
I replaced all the seals, including the upgraded US Seal for the impeller shaft a few weeks ago.
I replaced the spider gasket in my Hayward sand filter about six weeks ago.
I replaced the pump motor a year ago with a V-Green 165.

Jason

Yeah, I know sometimes it gets that way. Did you notice any of the flakes during any of these operations? Just from the appearance of the photo the flakes look like they could be chips of plaster or chips from deposits inside the piping somewhere. The greenish/blue tint indicates there could be some copper in it. That normally comes from the pool heater tubes or algaecide. Have you ever used any non-recommended chemicals? See the video below. The good thing is you've got one of our two mad scientists (@JamesW and @JoyfulNoise involved. They're like bulldogs on these kind of issues. Hang in there with his suggestions. It may take some weird tests but he usually unravels the most difficult mysteries. I would also echo his comments about CSI. If everything else stays within TFP ranges CSI should be good. But you don't know that if you're not measuring using the complete set of TFP tests.

Chris

 

[JasonParker]

@JamesW the flakes barely react with drops of hydrochloric acid. They do not dissolve. I opened up the salt cell housing, removed the salt cell and I found some of the flakes in the housing, see photo.

Assuming the flakes are from the Raypak's tube bundle is that a sign of imminent replacement? Should I try to remove the manifolds and ream out the tubes with a drill burr? If the copper is degrading, cleaning it probably wouldn't help--maybe it would make it worse. I don't want it to fail and cause an urgent condition, especially with these cold Colorado winters. I've looked for instructions or a video on how to replace it but came up empty so far. The joker who installed it won't be invited back to repair it.

Are there gaskets, switches, or other parts that I should replace if/when I have it all opened up? Maybe I'll add a Protek Shield at that time.

thanks,
Jason

 

[JamesW]

the flakes barely react with drops of hydrochloric acid.

Calcium carbonate would dissolve in acid.

Maybe calcium phosphate.

The Case of the Mysterious Pool Deposits

The 80,000-gallon resort pool, which had been operating flawlessly for years, had suddenly developed a very expensive, very troubling problem.

www.aquamagazine.com

https://www.poolspanews.com/facilities/maintenance/calcium-phosphate-scale_o

The Case of the Mysterious Pool Deposits

The 80,000-gallon resort pool, which had been operating flawlessly for years, had suddenly developed a very expensive, very troubling problem.

aquamagazine.com

The Mystery of the Pointed Crystals

Seemingly overnight, this pool was covered in sharp crystals. Where did they come from?

aquamagazine.com

 

[JasonParker]

Thanks, @JamesW When I added drips of hydrochloric acid on the flakes, the white coating slightly bubbled away, leaving the flakes even more blue and brown color.

The blues and browns in these crusty pieces still concerns me. The articles above (thanks) state the substance is white.

Would it be worthwhile to remove either or both manifolds and get a good look inside the copper tube bundle? Is there any other visual inspection I can do to the tube bundle to assess its health?

Jason

 

[JasonParker]

Yeah, I know sometimes it gets that way. Did you notice any of the flakes during any of these operations? Just from the appearance of the photo the flakes look like they could be chips of plaster or chips from deposits inside the piping somewhere. The greenish/blue tint indicates there could be some copper in it. That normally comes from the pool heater tubes or algaecide. Have you ever used any non-recommended chemicals? See the video below. The good thing is you've got one of our two mad scientists (@JamesW and @JoyfulNoise involved. They're like bulldogs on these kind of issues. Hang in there with his suggestions. It may take some weird tests but he usually unravels the most difficult mysteries. I would also echo his comments about CSI. If everything else stays within TFP ranges CSI should be good. But you don't know that if you're not measuring using the complete set of TFP tests.

Chris

Chris,
I have never used non-recommended chemicals! I'll have to get a test kit that measures calcium hardness.

Jason

 

[setsailsoon]

Jason,
That's good you haven't used non-recommended chemicals. If it was me I wouldn't be taking the manifold or wire brushing the tubes. I'd leave well enough alone and focus on keeping your chemistry within TFP recommendations. CSI is an interesting calculated number and I always checked to see I was well inside the range for a salt pool. My heater was 7 years old when we sold the house and it got used extensively all year round. If you stay inside TFP measures your CSI will be in range. But I would tweak within the ranges to keep CSI just a little negative as much as possible. Not sure if this was part of the reason I had good performance from the heater but I'm sure it didn't hurt.

Chris

 

[JasonParker]

Hey TFP friends, especially @setsailsoon and @JamesW ---

Ironically, the heater finally had some issues in the middle of the night. I had to shut her down-- banging noises, switching on and off constantly. So today I opened up the headers. Tons of loose scale! I cleaned it out beautifully, check out the before and after photos. I carefully cleaned out the burner tubes. The scale came out easily and I saw no damage to the pipes themselves, other than a bit of corroding at the tips where they exit the manifold. The scale may have been in there from before I had the pool replastered. Six years with this heater and I had never cleaned out the headers or the heat exchange tubes.

I reassembled everything, no leaks. And now it's super quiet! No babbling brook gurgling sounds because the flow is perfect.

I did have to increase the RPMs by a couple hundred on my V-Green variable speed pump to avoid a high limit 2 fault when first starting up the heater.

I do have a concern on the assembly order of the bypass valve, spring, and dam (parts 006716F, 006717F, and 006718F). I've been searching everywhere for a video or image sequence showing how it sits inside the header.





--Jason

 

[setsailsoon]

Hey TFP friends, especially @setsailsoon and @JamesW ---

Ironically, the heater finally had some issues in the middle of the night. I had to shut her down-- banging noises, switching on and off constantly. So today I opened up the headers. Tons of loose scale! I cleaned it out beautifully, check out the before and after photos. I carefully cleaned out the burner tubes. The scale came out easily and I saw no damage to the pipes themselves, other than a bit of corroding at the tips where they exit the manifold. The scale may have been in there from before I had the pool replastered. Six years with this heater and I had never cleaned out the headers or the heat exchange tubes.

I reassembled everything, no leaks. And now it's super quiet! No babbling brook gurgling sounds because the flow is perfect.

I did have to increase the RPMs by a couple hundred on my V-Green variable speed pump to avoid a high limit 2 fault when first starting up the heater.

I do have a concern on the assembly order of the bypass valve, spring, and dam (parts 006716F, 006717F, and 006718F). I've been searching everywhere for a video or image sequence showing how it sits inside the header.





--Jason

View attachment 470890

That's great to hear Jason and thanks for the follow up. Wish I could help with the assembly question. This is a pretty popular heater so there are lots of videos out there. Click here to find a few of them. Please continue to follow up. This thread will be more help to others with the final report.

Chris

 

[JamesW]

I suspect that it might be calcium phosphate if the flakes do not dissolve with acid.

Check the phosphate levels.

The Case of the Mysterious Pool Deposits

The 80,000-gallon resort pool, which had been operating flawlessly for years, had suddenly developed a very expensive, very troubling problem.

aquamagazine.com