Newb OB with BYOP in Buckeye AZ - Short vacation pH and FC question

[onBalance]

The first thing that needs to be determined is what type of plaster finish do you want to be installed.
Quartz, pebble, glass beads or oyster shells? Regular white plaster or will it have a color pigment added? Knowing that will determine what specifics are needed for a good job.

Fortunately, at the recent Pool & Spa Expo at Las Vegas in November, there was a plaster instructional class that taught (for the first time), the correct procedures and techniques to follow as outlined in the above articles. I think that may also help getting a good plaster job outcome.

 

[Schwimmbad]

The first thing that needs to be determined is what type of plaster finish do you want to be installed.

Yea, that is a great point and as I was creating that contract document I realized I need to pick one first to spell out what specific terms we want.
Only problem is wifey and hubby can't even agree on color. (I'm the one getting hit on the head)

She wants dark lagoon look and that is too dark for me. I'm already concerned about pool being too warm in peak of summer. Maybe we should focus on selecting a product/type first.

Fortunately, at the recent Pool & Spa Expo at Las Vegas in November, there was a plaster instructional class that taught (for the first time), the correct procedures and techniques to follow as outlined in the above articles.

That's interesting and surprising. How big is that expo and I wonder how many plastering companies went to it?
Maybe I should add that to my plastering company screening questions?

 

[onBalance]

The darker the color, the more problematic it is to achieve a uniform color. If you like a marble look, then that is what dark colors generally achieve.

That Expo is the biggest pool show. WaterShapes University provided the seminar class on plastering. It is WaterShapes that has published many articles that I have written about plastering and water chemistry. Progress to improve plastering standards is happening!

 

[Schwimmbad]

Any and all comments requested on our latest version of pool plan (BYOP), hardscaping plan (separate company), and plumbing plan.

Since BYOP won't provide an equipment list or draw up a plumbing schematic until I sign off on the pool design I created an initial plumbing schematic (all diverter valves). I freely admit I don't know anything about pool plumbing so the schematic is based on what I've read on this forum. I hope the resident TFP plumbing guru's will weigh in with any feedback.

On the plumbing:
While I have read quite a bit about main drains not being needed and I tend to agree they aren't needed, I am 90% sure I want to have one anyway. It will be the source to the water scuppers which will be on its own pump. A second purpose will be when on extended vacation it will be an alternate source for the main pump in case something happens with the skimmers (I'm probably overthinking this).

1. Any general comments on the plumbing schematic?
2. Is pipe size ok?
3. Are there any concerns with the plan for a 3-way diverter valve from the main drain?
4. Is the loop for the water features installed at the equipment pad or out by the water features?

Footnote: Since I have two different parties drawing up designs, they don't match exactly. The latest details for the pool are on the BYOP drawing (ignore the hardscape elements on the BYOP diagram). The latest details for the hardscape are on the rendering (and youtube video). We won't finalize the pool details until we close on our new home at the end of March and do a layout to help visualize it all.







Video of backyard

 

[Schwimmbad]

Bumping this thread hoping for a few comments on the questions above. I'm about to sign off on the design. My BYOP rep said he suggested the pool returns and the skimmers should be looped so they are balanced. Thoughts?

 

[Julianl50]

I'm in the same spot as you but so far my take is:

Home runs @ 2.5" skimmers and drain
Equipment pad 2" does the job
Returns - home runs are fine to do @ 1.5"

 

[AQUA~HOLICS]

I have a question in regards to the overall slope/elevation of the property, the drawing and sketch shows all the deck work and swimming pool (except +18” RBB) as +0”. If the property is perfectly level from the house structure to the back yard fence then no concern, if not then the difference in elevation will have to be adjusted in a very short distance (2’)

 

[Schwimmbad]

Thanks for the comments @AQUA~HOLICS. The home patio, backyard, and equipment pad is the same level. There is one elevated sitting area (not pool related) that is +18”.

 

[proavia]

Where is all the rain water from the house and patio roof going to drain to?
Even though we are in AZ, a good monsoon storm can produce a lot of runoff.

For the future chiller rough in, consider doing it the same as the heater rough in - so the chiller return will flow thru the SWG before going to the returns. As it shows now, water going thru the chiller won't go thru the SWG.

Also consider valves - maybe hidden but accessible - for each individual scupper.
Or homerun each scupper back to the equipment pad and have the valves there.
Don't use cheap ball valves - use 2-way Jandy valves. A little added expense, but you'll only have to do it once.
I know the plumbing shows that the flow "should" be balanced, but in reality it's never perfect. Having a valve for each scupper will simplify the plumbing and almost ensure a balanced flow.

 

[Schwimmbad]

Hey @proavia I really appreciate your comments. It's because of folks like you that I feel brave enough to take this project on.

Anyway, to capture the monsoon rain from the roof (patio is also under roof) we are going to install gutters that run to the side yards that will drain to the street. Monsoon rain that lands on the backyard will be sloped away from the pool. The pool will be elevated minimally above the patio and the turf between the patio and the pool will be the low spot between the two running toward the side yards and toward the street. Our landscaper has already talked about how to manage the monsoons.

Thanks for pointing out the location of the SWG after the chiller. The Glacier manual has lots of disclaimers about using the chiller with salt water pools. Am I incorrectly thinking that putting the SWG after the chiller will help reduce corrosion?

I have read so many times on this forum about not using ball valves, so those will be nowhere to be found in my setup. I thought about putting the diverter valves on the scupper lines but when reading some of that material it mentioned having the loop so they are balanced. I wondered how well that would work. So if I install valves for the scuppers I assume I would eliminate the loop, is that correct?

 

[proavia]

You're welcome!

Good to hear about the drainage plan - seems sound. You usually want the pool edge to be the high spot, so water runs away from the pool edge. Using gutters and channeling the water to the side yards should work well.

The rest of your plan look well thought out also.

In your plumbing drawing, the chiller water (when in service) goes directly back to the pool thru the returns - totally missing the SWG. It should go thru the chiller, then the SWG and returns to pool.
SWG should be the last item in line before the water goes back to the pool. So filter, heater or chiller or neither, SWG, returns to pool. Whether the SWG is plumbed as shown or how I suggested, your salt water pool water will still go thru the chiller when it's in use.

Yes, if using a valve for each individual scupper, you can eliminate the loop. The valves will help equalize the flow thru the scuppers.

Oh yeah - as to color... the darker the color the hotter the water will be in summer. I don't have a chiller and my pool is shaded after 3pm in summer. Last summer, the pool water in my average 4' deep pool exceeded 92*. My pool has a light plaster and pebble color.

 

[thewolf56]

Hey @proavia I really appreciate your comments. It's because of folks like you that I feel brave enough to take this project on.

Anyway, to capture the monsoon rain from the roof (patio is also under roof) we are going to install gutters that run to the side yards that will drain to the street. Monsoon rain that lands on the backyard will be sloped away from the pool. The pool will be elevated minimally above the patio and the turf between the patio and the pool will be the low spot between the two running toward the side yards and toward the street. Our landscaper has already talked about how to manage the monsoons.

Thanks for pointing out the location of the SWG after the chiller. The Glacier manual has lots of disclaimers about using the chiller with salt water pools. Am I incorrectly thinking that putting the SWG after the chiller will help reduce corrosion?

I have read so many times on this forum about not using ball valves, so those will be nowhere to be found in my setup. I thought about putting the diverter valves on the scupper lines but when reading some of that material it mentioned having the loop so they are balanced. I wondered how well that would work. So if I install valves for the scuppers I assume I would eliminate the loop, is that correct?

Hey Schwimmbad.

I'm not too far from you in Goodyear and I just finished an Owner/Build in August. I used a different consultant for my pool, but probably have some of the same subs on the recommended list.

It's a good idea to have the rough-ins for the heater and chiller before committing to them. Even though AZ is pretty hot, you will want a some sort of heating to extend the season. For example, my pool water was 66 degrees on Saturday and 26 hours later it was 85 degrees and we were swimming on Sunday. We were also able to swim until November, but then the outside air was getting too cold to want to fight it after getting out of the pool. Also, being an AZ transplant, the longer you are in AZ, the warmer you will want your pool water. My wife was still freezing with 85 degree pool water . My father-in-law has a heat pump that is also a chiller, but he never uses the chiller because it is quite expensive to run. We opted for a heat-only heat pump for that reason and have room to add another pad if I ever need one of the glacier chillers, but figured I would try out a full summer before going that route. Our pool water was 92 degrees on the first day it was filled (cold tap water in our area of Goodyear is over 100 degrees in the summer) but settled between 87-88 most of August and only hit 90 on one day.

 

[Schwimmbad]

Got some updates. Signed off on the design (see attached). Now getting engineering done with the permit and HOA application to follow.

I updated the plumbing drawing to show the SWG in front of the future chiller and to install valves for each of the 3 scuppers and eliminate the loop. I left the pipe sizes alone for now but wondering if there are any other strong feelings about making any other changes.

I have also attached the equipment list from BYOP. They need to put the separate waterfall pump that I will have to get included and go with the IC60. Any comments on the items? I'm not confident with the intellicenter items on the equipment list. Hope someone knowledgeable can take a look. Can I run ethernet cable to connect to my network instead of the 900MHZ module? Pricewise the Intellicenter is $4,200 (with the 900MHZ, IC40), is that a decent price?

By the way, is there a way to insert pdfs so they show as images within the post rather than having to click on the individual docs?

 

[thewolf56]

By the way, is there a way to insert pdfs so they show as images within the post rather than having to click on the individual docs?

I've always seen pdfs as attachments.

Is there a reason you want the Intellichlor in front of the potential chiller? It has been a while since I looked at the glacier manual, but I would think that would add to potential corrosion.

On the equipment side, I would recommend the 520 filter and the Jandy Neverlube valves. They are still compatible with the Pentair Intellivalve. As far as price of the Intellicenter, that seems a little high, but I bought my 5P with IC-40 over a year ago. Have you picked out your potential plaster colors? That will determine the color that you will want for some of your equipment items (skimmer and drain).

 

[Schwimmbad]

Hey @thewolf56, thanks for chiming in. Nice to hear again from a west valley compadre, if I may be so bold.

Getting busy now with bids, up to 34 so far and only a week into the process. 21 of the 34 quotes were from contractor names that you were kind enough to share, so thank you!

I've always seen pdfs as attachments

Thanks, wasn't sure

Is there a reason you want the Intellichlor in front of the potential chiller? It has been a while since I looked at the glacier manual, but I would think that would add to potential corrosion.

I moved the SWG before the line branching to the chiller as suggested by @proavia earlier in this thread. I just shared the diagram with one plumber and he said the SWG should be after the chiller (where I originally had it). When the chiller runs it is only handling a portion of the flow and discharging it's water to the pool through one floor return while the rest of the flow would go through the SWG to the other returns. Given I've received a few comments that seem to be conflicting I'm hoping there is a "chiller" expert lurking about to chime in and educate me on the correct way to run it?

I would recommend the 520 filter

I'd like to but it is too tall, HOA limits height of equipment screen wall and top of equipment must be 12" below top of screen wall.

Jandy Neverlube valves. They are still compatible with the Pentair Intellivalve.

Thanks for the suggestion. Wondering why Jandy over Pentair? Cost or some other reason?

Have you picked out your potential plaster colors? That will determine the color that you will want for some of your equipment items (skimmer and drain).

We think so, but like so much with this whole endeavor it's a maddening exercise. When we think we made a decision we sit on it for a while and end up changing our mind. For now we seem to have settled on NPT Stonescapes sand mini, going for greenish color.

 

[Schwimmbad]

Need plumbing advice, reference current plan:


A plumber I talked to suggested to run a separate source for the water feature pump and not have it sourced by the main drain with a valve that could be switched over to the main pump. My thought was when on a long vacation (snowbird) to switch the main drain over to the main pump to mitigate an issue if the auto water leveler failed.

He didn't like that because if you didn't run the water feature pump both the pump and the lines would have water sitting for an extended time which creates other problems. Pumps are designed to run and need to run to keep in good shape and water lines shouldn’t sit to prevent junk from building up.

He mentioned if using the venturi skimmers they have a port for an equalizer line which is typically about a foot below the skimmer. So the water would have to drop pretty far for it to be an issue. Never having a pool before, if we were gone for a few months and the water leveler failed, is it likely to drop below port for the equalizer line? Am I overthinking this? Is this such a low probability event I shouldn’t worry about it? I have read on this forum one or two times about those things failing, so I was thinking of having a design to mitigate it.

He was quoting the mantra I've heard around here that each pump should have their own dedicated source and shouldn’t have it designed where each pump could potentially share a source.

Now I’m rethinking the plan to eliminate the main drain altogether and have a separate source from a pool wall to feed the water feature pump? Comments?

The other item the plumber mentioned is I have a ton of home runs and that will really increase the price a lot. Between the 2 skimmers, main drain, scuppers line, and the 6 returns I have a total of 10. Looking for feedback, is it really worth it?

While I can just have him price it out, my wild a** guess is it would add maybe $2-3K, which seems like a small(ish) price to pay in the long run.

 

[ajw22]

Your plumber is correct, pumps should not share a water source. Each pump should have dedicated suction intakes.

My pump and all other pumps sit idle for around 6 months out of the year when the pool is closed. Pool pumps do not need to be run regularly.

You can program your IntelliCenter to run your water features for a few minutes every day or two to keep the lines fresh.

My IntelliCenter runs my spa jets and blower automatically for a few minutes every day for that reason.

 

[proavia]

I moved the SWG before the line branching to the chiller as suggested by @proavia earlier in this thread. I just shared the diagram with one plumber and he said the SWG should be after the chiller (where I originally had it).

In post #29 I said:
For the future chiller rough in, consider doing it the same as the heater rough in - so the chiller return will flow thru the SWG before going to the returns. As it shows now, water going thru the chiller won't go thru the SWG.

After the filter, the heater should be plumbed as shown, then the chiller should be plumbed with the exact same bypass setup as the heater, then comes the SWG, then the water returns to the pool. Since it appears you have separate valves for each return, including the floor and baja returns, you can send heated/cooled water thru the SWG and then return it to the pool thru any selected returns.

The plumbing diagram in post #24 shows if water goes thru chiller, it will NOT go thru the SWG before being returned to the pool.

The plumbing diagram in post #36 shows water going thru the SWG, then thru the chiller (if chiller being used) and then returned to the pool.

Filter -> heater/heater bypass -> chiller/chiller bypass -> SWG -> returns to pool

The main drains should only feed the main pump.
Auxiliary drains (sometimes seen in the pool wall) should feed the separate water fearure pump.
Don't feed two different pumps from the same set of main drains.

 

[Julianl50]

Need plumbing advice, reference current plan:
View attachment 490263

Now I’m rethinking the plan to eliminate the main drain altogether and have a separate source from a pool wall to feed the water feature pump? Comments?

The other item the plumber mentioned is I have a ton of home runs and that will really increase the price a lot. Between the 2 skimmers, main drain, scuppers line, and the 6 returns I have a total of 10. Looking for feedback, is it really worth it?

While I can just have him price it out, my wild a** guess is it would add maybe $2-3K, which seems like a small(ish) price to pay in the long run.

Home run returns don’t need to be 2”. With 6 returns most of the time you will be pushing less than 10 gpm per pipe. 1.5” is more than adequate.

I like your pump main drain setup and suggested to my engineer and they said no. I’m still in your camp. I really think it’s sufficient. The pumps would never be sharing the main drain while in service. I would look at it as the diverter is a “service” / vacation mode valve.

My pool is going to be 8’ so I’ve been convinced to keep the floor suction(for hydrostatic valve mostly). But in your situation I would go with the wall suction for the features.

 

[thewolf56]

I forgot to mention that with the 4 microbrites, your pool should be plenty bright. I have 4 microbrites as well (1 baja ledge, 2 pool body, and 1 uplighting my grotto/waterfall) and the only color that does not seem to have adequate coverage is red in the main body. Everyone else thinks it looks fine, but I see where 1 more light would have helped it between the 2 pool body lights. Otherwise, every other color is plenty bright. The way your 3 are spaced in the pool body, you should not have any brightness issues even with red.

Hey @thewolf56, thanks for chiming in. Nice to hear again from a west valley compadre, if I may be so bold.

Getting busy now with bids, up to 34 so far and only a week into the process. 21 of the 34 quotes were from contractor names that you were kind enough to share, so thank you!

Glad that's working for you. It's a little tougher in our part of the valley.

I moved the SWG before the line branching to the chiller as suggested by @proavia earlier in this thread. I just shared the diagram with one plumber and he said the SWG should be after the chiller (where I originally had it). When the chiller runs it is only handling a portion of the flow and discharging it's water to the pool through one floor return while the rest of the flow would go through the SWG to the other returns. Given I've received a few comments that seem to be conflicting I'm hoping there is a "chiller" expert lurking about to chime in and educate me on the correct way to run it?

Definitely no expert, but you definitely want the SWG as your last item before the pool. I took a look at the manual and there are a couple ways of doing it. Dedicated return is the best, but not necessary for installation.

Thanks for the suggestion. Wondering why Jandy over Pentair? Cost or some other reason?

It wasn't any cheaper when I built, but they seem to be more highly recommended and the rebuild kits appear to be more readily available.

We think so, but like so much with this whole endeavor it's a maddening exercise. When we think we made a decision we sit on it for a while and end up changing our mind. For now we seem to have settled on NPT Stonescapes sand mini, going for greenish color.

If you are going with the sand color, I believe there is a tan color for the fittings and skimmer and drain trim that would blend in better than the grey. Also, make a note that you discuss fitting colors and any umbrella sleeve colors with your interior finish contractor before the day of the install.