My reply to a thread about borates was deleted... Am I off the mark?

[PoolGirl69420]

I had my first reply on this website deleted when I was responding to someone about the possible benefits of borates in a pool. I mentioned briefly that it would lower chlorine demand. Which it absolutely does. Here's a quick definition of chlorine demand :

Chlorine demand refers to the amount of chlorine needed to adequately sanitize water by oxidizing all contaminants until a residual level of free chlorine is maintained.

Borates lower chlorine demand by inhibition of algae growth

Bo rates reduce chlorine demand in 4 key ways:
Cell Wall Interference Borates disrupt the structure of algae cell walls, weakening their integrity and impeding their growth.
Enzymatic Activity Disruption Borates inhibit key enzymes like carbonic anhydrase, essential for algae's photosynthesis, thereby reducing their ability to grow and reproduce.
Boron as a Micronutrient Excessive boron, introduced through borates, can cause toxicity in algae, disrupting their cellular functions and inhibiting growth.
Osmotic Stress Borates alter the osmotic balance around algae, inducing stress that hampers their ability to maintain vital internal conditions necessary for survival and growth.

My knowledge extends to graduate-level chemistry at UT, although I don’t claim to know everything. But when I was researching borates, I came across so many legitimate and reputable resources. One major proponent of their use for this specific purpose is Bob Lowry, a renowned chemist and expert in the field of swimming pools with over 47 years of experience. He authored more than 23 books on the subject, making significant contributions to the pool service industry's knowledge and practices.

I aim to engage in discussions grounded in reason and evidence here. Is this a platform where such discussions are welcomed?

It's disappointing that my original post was removed.

 

[ajw22]

Was it an old thread or a recent thread?

See Forum Rules - Further Reading

6. Please do not answer posts that haven't had any activity in more than a year (unless you are updating your own topic). Usually the issue has been resolved even if that is not reflected in the thread. If you have a question for the originator of the thread send it by pm instead.

 

[PoolGirl69420]

Was it an old thread or a recent thread?

See Forum Rules - Further Reading

6. Please do not answer posts that haven't had any activity in more than a year (unless you are updating your own topic). Usually the issue has been resolved even if that is not reflected in the thread. If you have a question for the originator of the thread send it by pm instead.

I was replying to this thread earlier today Borates and TA .

I wrote something like ' but what does everyone think about the benefits of Borates as it relates to pH, lowering chlorine demand and softening the feel of the water?

It was literally a single sentence. It's gone now, but that's the best that I can remember.

 

[Sarah and Nate]

Yes, I welcome discussion on this subject on TFP. The thread you posted in was not your own and I simply ask that you either revise your original post or start a new thread. If you would like to have a discussion about the utility of borates as an algae growth inhibitor, by all means start a thread in our The Deep End subforum where the big brains reside.

TFP does not teach that borates are used for algae inhibition or chlorine demand reduction. There is already lots of information presented to our new users and I worry that the presentation of borates as a potential algae fighter would send the wrong message about their importance in our pool care philosophy. In our eyes, at least at present, borates are an optional additive with mostly subjective benefits. We do not discourage or encourage their use and we would ask you to do the same in other users threads.

 

[PoolGirl69420]

Yes, I welcome discussion on this subject on TFP. The thread you posted in was not your own and I simply ask that you either revise your original post or start a new thread. If you would like to have a discussion about the utility of borates as an algae growth inhibitor, by all means start a thread in our The Deep End subforum where the big brains reside.

TFP does not teach that borates are used for algae inhibition or chlorine demand reduction. There is already lots of information presented to our new users and I worry that the presentation of borates as a potential algae fighter would send the wrong message about their importance in our pool care philosophy. In our eyes, at least at present, borates are an optional additive with mostly subjective benefits. We do not discourage or encourage their use and we would ask you to do the same in other users threads.

What's intersting is that I was asking people's opinion about the use of borates, I didn't say that anyone should.

And do you have any evidence that borate algae inhibition is 'subjective' or open to interpretation? I spent a few hours looking around for any papers disproving their use and I couldn't find a single one. The general consensus in the scientific and pool maintenance communities is that borates serve as an effective algaestat by creating conditions unfavorable for algae growth.

If discussing borates is not allowed here—count me out! I don't want to be a part of a community where science is replaced with dogma.

Peace

 

[Sarah and Nate]

Again, your discussion would be more than welcome in a thread in The Deep End. My deletion of your post had more to do with it not being your thread than anything else. In the Algae subforum, we prefer our guides and experts help users with their pool issues and we leave the more philosophical or scientific discussions for other subforums.

It’s certainly possible that TFP is behind the times on the utility of borates. However we have to teach at the level of the student, and most of our users are new to pool maintenance and do not need an additional parameter to keep track of in borates. We manage algae by maintaining FC in relation to CYA; we do not use algaecides and at this point we do not use borates to inhibit algae growth.

I hope you will consider staying as it seems you have a lot to contribute on this particular topic.

 

[proavia]

The Deep End forum is a great place to delve deeper.
But be prepared to provide links to research papers or other hard evidence to backup your discussion.

With your listed background, I'm sure you will have a lot to contribute.

 

[PoolGirl69420]

I was talking about borates in a thread with borates in the title. This is insane IMHO. I'm out!

I suspect people in the industry don't like borates because they reduce overall chemistry demand by up to 40% in the summer

 

[PoolStored]

Oh, the sordid history of Pool Maintenance...LOL. I'm a genealogist, and like research. I spent a long time researching some of the history of TFP and pool maintenance.

Lowry was, for a long time, a pool industry guy selling and marketing all the garbage pool-potions that people waste endless amounts of money on every year. Then, somewhere along the way, he ran across the work of Ben Powell and Richard Falk (chem geek on TFP) and decided he liked what they were talking about and figured he could turn a profit with it. Now he’s considered some kind of “guru of pools” when all he did was repackage and push information that was out on public forums (including TFP) for a long time (example from Chem Geek in 2007...Link-->Pool Water Chemistry). At some point, Lowry lost the narrative. Sorry, but I'm unimpressed by Lowry....

BTW, Richard Falk has been working tirelessly directly with the CDC’s Model Aquatic Health Committee (MAHC) to develop and publish new guidelines for aquatic systems (public) that will incorporate many of the ideas and science behind the FC/CYA ratio. With additional cross-agency work with the EPA, public regulations will finally start to realize and enforce the use of proper FC/CYA ratios when cyanuric acid is present in water systems. This will almost assuredly make it into the CPO training materials and eventually (hopefully) will filter down to the consumer level as the younger generation of pool professionals becomes better trained. Sadly this “top down” learning is about a decade or so behind what the grassroots community (aka, TFP) already practices at the residential level ....

I spent a few hours looking around for any papers disproving their use and I couldn't find a single one.

I spent countless hours, and I haven't seen any credible evidence presented that Borates reduce chlorine demand or act as an algaecidal at the levels recommended that are safe for humans...if you have it, as a borate user and TFP guide, I'd like to see it...all I have found from Lowry are the statements with no citations or references. I like to see papers PROVING their use as a chlorine demand reducer, or algaecide.

Some of the claims.
Borates protects HOCl from UV, is not proven. There is no chemical interaction between HOCl and borates and there is certainly no evidence that borates reduce UV extinction ... at least not any evidence I am aware of...

The pH buffering effect can be highly variable from pool to pool with most north eastern pools (acidic, low alkalinity fill water and heavy rain dilution) not showing much benefit at all.

The algaecidal properties of boron have been known for a long time but, at 50ppm recommended levels, it's weak at best. There would have to have borates above 200ppm to see significant results and that is not advisable from a health standpoint. Citation: Martinez et al (1986b) and Mateo et al (1987) in Eisler (1990) Eisler, R. Boron hazards to fish, wildlife, and invertebrates: A synoptic review. United States: N. p.15, 1990. (Page 15 here: Boron Hazards to Fish, Wildlife, and Invertebrates, A Synoptic Review - Google Play) At 50ppm there was no effect. At 100ppm there was a "decrease in protein content causing inhibition in nitrate uptake and nitrate reductase activity . Decreased chlorophyll content and photosynthesis inhibition within 72 h." This is a mild effect. Again, you would have to approach 200ppm to see significant result. I have seen NO other study of the algaecidal properties of Borates, particularly that are safe for humans and applies to pools. I'd love to see it...

Improved SWG efficiency is probably some mixed benefits from the fact that pH is buffered inside the cell when it is generating chlorine gas.

 

[PoolGirl69420]

That's because there is no direct chemical interaction between borates and HOCl that would protect HOCl from UV light. The primary role of borates in pool chemistry is not as a UV stabilizer but as an algaecide and pH buffer.

The effectiveness of borates as a buffer can indeed vary based on local water conditions such as source water alkalinity and frequency of rainfall, which can dilute pool chemistry. In areas with naturally acidic or low alkalinity water, the buffering capacity of borates might not be as pronounced, affecting their overall utility in such environments.

The studies cited from the 1980s and synthesized by Eisler discuss the impact of boron on aquatic life at higher concentrations than typically used in pools. The study has no valuable insight and did not test the hypothesis we are talking abnout. The potential environmental impacts of high boron level do not directly address the standard use of borates in swimming pools.

I don't have a problem with disagreement, however, I do not want to be a part of a community that censors discussion they don't like. This will be my last message.

 

[PoolStored]

That's because there is no direct chemical interaction between borates and HOCl that would protect HOCl from UV light. The primary role of borates in pool chemistry is not as a UV stabilizer but as an algaecide and pH buffer.

We agree on the stabilization and pH buffer. We disagree on the algaecidal properties of Borates.

The effectiveness of borates as a buffer can indeed vary based on local water conditions such as source water alkalinity and frequency of rainfall, which can dilute pool chemistry. In areas with naturally acidic or low alkalinity water, the buffering capacity of borates might not be as pronounced, affecting their overall utility in such environments.

Agreement again!

The studies cited from the 1980s and synthesized by Eisler discuss the impact of boron on aquatic life at higher concentrations than typically used in pools. The study has no valuable insight and did not test the hypothesis we are talking abnout. The potential environmental impacts of high boron level do not directly address the standard use of borates in swimming pools.

What hypothesis are we talking about? At 50ppm, Eisler saw no impact on algae. Kinda doesn't matter pool or pond...no?

Again, I have seen no evidence of the Algaecidal properties of Borates in a pool. I'd love to see Lowry's evidence.

I don't have a problem with disagreement, however, I do not want to be a part of a community that censors discussion they don't like. This will be my last message.

I don't think you were "censored." You appended a thread with a new topic, that was posted to an existing thread. That post had the potential to to go into an overly technical topic. It was moved to provide you the freedom to discuss AND conform to our rules.

From here:

Forum Rules - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

4. This forum is intended for the AVERAGE pool owner and, as such, the majority of members are not particularly interested in deep, overly technical, or controversial discussions. They are interested in the day-to-day operation of a residential pool. If you have a need to discuss these topics, please do so only in the forum entitled "The Deep End".

I personally would hate to see your skills and expertise go away, rather than stay and help us advance. #alwayslearning

 

[newdude]

please do so only in the forum entitled "The Deep End".

For the record, we're here now.

Carry on.

 

[kne]

sigh... why do I now have the urge to contemplate adding borates to my pool. I clicked no on the pool math app years ago because why would I want to add borates to my pool. How do you even track borates??

@PoolGirl69420 - I know you announced your departure, but if you are still here. You joined maybe 24 hours ago. There is no way you have read through the forums, got a feel for the place or the mods, whose only goal is to help everyone understand the why of water change based off of what one puts into the water. You came in screaming censorship and ignoring the "talk about borates all you want. Just start your own thread *here*". The Deep End is a better place than the old agree to disagree forum. Which you might know about if you had been here more than a day.

But seriously, I've been around here for almost 9 years and am pretty well versed in pool care. This makes ME wonder if I should add borates. But I know enough from this forum to probably not add them, or if I do, to understand the whole picture.

This forum is full of brand new pool owners, or people who have only used tablets until their CYA is 200, now their pool is a green swamp, maybe they are using test strips that show high PH and no FC. Or their FC is right on track, but they have no idea how CYA works. They read a snippet of something or other about borates and see it helps with PH and is an algaecide! Perfect fix! Rather than getting a proper test kit, understanding what their main problem is an attacking it that way, they think adding borates are going be the magic solution. But it's not, because they never addressed what is actually causing their issue.

Last but not least, and I am just a member, and not a mod or admin, so I am not speaking for TFP, just as a member of society. Joining a forum, your first comment goes against the forum rules, the mods explain to you, nicely, why it was removed and where you could have your discussion, and asked you to stay to have said discussion, but you still keep stating censorship. It's not cool dude. You could have just said, oh ok. Then continued talking more about your thoughts on the benefits of borates. I probably would have purchased what I needed to add borates to my pool, because silky water sounds lovely, along with a $150 thermometer that I absolutely, probably, don't need, while I wait for my new pool robot to be delivered Friday. Now I'm just getting the robot.

 

[newdude]

Here's our official position on borates

Borates in pool - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

In the left sidebar or towards the bottom of any forum page is the TFP Wiki. Most topics are covered there going deeper than the average discussion

 

[mgtfp]

Hey @PoolGirl69420, welcome to the forum.

I think you triggered an interesting discussion there. Any chance you could share your sources with us?

 

[ajw22]

I have not paid attention to borates in a while. A few years ago I put 50ppm of boric acid into my pool partly because of the discussions here and partly because in my pre-TFP days I used BioGaurd Mineral Springs that had boric acid in it.

My pool water was nice with it and then over the years I did not add more boric acid so the borate level declined with each years winterization drain. By now my borate level is minimal or at 0 and I have not seen any difference, or so I thought.

This little tiff got me looking into Borates and I came across this recent article from April 2023 in Aqua Magazine - The Borate Pool Opening - and the benefit claimed from keeping pH from rising very high in a closed pool and causing scaling.

I got an AhHa moment as the last few years my pool has had fairly high pH on opening. High pH that one year took 4 gallons of 34% MA to get pH into the 7's. This year it only took 2 gallons of MA to get pH into the 7's. I never used to see that. And now it struck me that the borates that kept the pH lower over the winter are gone.

We have had posting from others who open their pool with very high pH and some who get scaling over the winter. We have not had an answer for what they should do different at closing to prevent that and I think borates may be the answer.

I am ordering 80lbs of boric acid from Duda Diesel and getting it into my pool. We will see if next years opening pH is lower then the last few years.

So thank you @PoolGirl69420 as without your postings I would not have thought about borates. You have already made a positive contribution to our community.

 

[sduda210]

I tried borates two years ago and really didn't notice a difference.

As a background, the pH in my pool does not constantly rise or drop. I usually open the pool with a pH in the 6s due to the pool filling with rain and I add borax to get the pH to 7.4. The pH is usually drops to 7.0 in late July, early August. At that time I add borax again. The season I used borates I didn't have to adjust the pH mid season, so I guess there was a difference, just not one I would call substantial. That season I also didn't notice a difference in the percentage I had to run my salt cell to keep the chlorine at the correct level.

I can definitely see borates being a benefit for those that continually have to adjust their pH.

 

[duraleigh]

back in the day (about 10+ years ago) chem geek and Jason Lion and others felt that borates might be somewhat useful but anecdotal reports were simply too vague to suggest it's use.

It has always been an unproven add-on and poolgirl69420 has added nothing that would convince me to change my mind.

So, can you manage your pool water without borates? YES, OF COURSE .....and perfectly so. So why would you want to fix something that's not broken?

There is no valid (to us) documentation available that PROVES the usefulness of borates. We know it doesn't harm anything and it MIGHT POSSIBLY help somewhat but it is viewed as an individual choice item and TFP does not suggest it's use

Poolgirl, (I know your still lurking out there) this may help you undertstand better who we are.........We are a teaching forum and we exist to teach a method of pool care that we know works. Other methods exist that may or may not work but it is not our goal to discuss them.

 

[bobloblaw42]

Seeking only clarity and uniformity of approach for those that embrace and evangelize TFP methodology, I present this comment....... borates are listed under recommended pool chemicals and the word "Optional" is not listed within its paragraph. It even includes suggested websites to acquire boric acid. The beginner without nuance or experience can interpret this as TFP officially recommending Borates, by way of article title and the inclusion of Borates section.

 

[newdude]

The beginner without nuance or experience can interpret this as TFP officially recommending Borates, by way of article title and the inclusion of Borates section.

My goodness boblobkaw. You're entirely right. It points to a long discussion from 2008 that ended almost 10 years ago. The discussion continued, but not there.

Thanks for pointing it out.

Science and the world in general has come a long way since the forum's inception and it seems like a neverending job keeping it all current/relevant.

Even the forum itself, which started as the BBB method (Bleach, Borax, Baking Soda), and somewhere along the lines 2 of the 3 were rarely used, so Trouble Free Pool Care took over going forward. There's tons of BBB thoughts out there still and not that they're wrong, but they may not have aged as well as we've liked. That context is often missed by a new reader who isn't fluent in foruming.

My best advice is to read the old stuff when applicable, then come see how it's evolved or of its even still relevant with the current members.