Metal stain removal, sequestrant... stains return in about a week... repeat.
- Thread starter carlos31820
- Start date
Hi there. Does Jandy SWCG in your signature stand for salt water generator?
If so, some sequestrants do not work as well in high TDS of a saltwater pool. I don't know much about GLB, but if you're swg I'd try Jacks Magic Purple, which is more agressive with iron. (Jacks pink is most aggressive for iron if you're not swg...its about 60% phosphonic acid.)
Secondly, IF you're swg, you can be adding trace amounts of iron in the salt that's oxidizing in the swg cycle. This coupled with plain ole rain might be enough to have caused it to build up. While your soil might not be blowing in in any huge quantity, it does seem suspect that you have other soil staining and I have seen cases where iron in the soil ends up in the water
In your case, I feel it would be worth having an iron test kit -- and then reporting back the ppm. Those are relatively cheap.
There was a poster here a few years back called Small Pool Dad who had a constant metal struggle due to the iron content in surrounding soil. He tried various things, including a highly complicated hydrogen peroxide treatment which I also attempted to replicate.
My recollection was that to stay stain free, he simply had to keep a level of 28 ppm or higher in sequestrant. Again, thats a pricey kit when its "obvious" when sequestrant has worn off, so I'm not necessarily suggesting one.
If you had the iron test kit, I'd test your fill water too, regardless of whether you're city or well. That will also help determine a next step...if the fill is clean or even lower than ppm in pool, its worth dilution. If not, its not, and then it might be time to look and some extra mechanical filtration -- eg a greensand filter plumbed in (metal trap makes a larger one for autofills) or maybe some on-return filtration via Slimebag (The Slime Bag | The Easiest Way To Maintain Crystal Clear Pool Water. )
In the xperimental vein, since you have a sand filter, there's a product called FerriTab that is polyacrylate, which kinda flocs out oxidized iron via filter...this might be worth a try only when the sequestrant looks worn off as in my experiment it didn't appear to do a lot when the water was highly sequestered.
There is also a process of adding calcium via the skimmer in very specific circumstances that has been reported to reduce iron, but I never tried it and I haven't been able o find that thread again for a few years. I will try to take another look tomorrow after some assue gardening gets handled
Lastly, controlling ph to the low side, eg 7.2, should help. Hope that gives you a few idea to start kicking around. Will check back to hel refine strategies
If so, some sequestrants do not work as well in high TDS of a saltwater pool. I don't know much about GLB, but if you're swg I'd try Jacks Magic Purple, which is more agressive with iron. (Jacks pink is most aggressive for iron if you're not swg...its about 60% phosphonic acid.)
Secondly, IF you're swg, you can be adding trace amounts of iron in the salt that's oxidizing in the swg cycle. This coupled with plain ole rain might be enough to have caused it to build up. While your soil might not be blowing in in any huge quantity, it does seem suspect that you have other soil staining and I have seen cases where iron in the soil ends up in the water
In your case, I feel it would be worth having an iron test kit -- and then reporting back the ppm. Those are relatively cheap.
There was a poster here a few years back called Small Pool Dad who had a constant metal struggle due to the iron content in surrounding soil. He tried various things, including a highly complicated hydrogen peroxide treatment which I also attempted to replicate.
My recollection was that to stay stain free, he simply had to keep a level of 28 ppm or higher in sequestrant. Again, thats a pricey kit when its "obvious" when sequestrant has worn off, so I'm not necessarily suggesting one.
If you had the iron test kit, I'd test your fill water too, regardless of whether you're city or well. That will also help determine a next step...if the fill is clean or even lower than ppm in pool, its worth dilution. If not, its not, and then it might be time to look and some extra mechanical filtration -- eg a greensand filter plumbed in (metal trap makes a larger one for autofills) or maybe some on-return filtration via Slimebag (The Slime Bag | The Easiest Way To Maintain Crystal Clear Pool Water. )
In the xperimental vein, since you have a sand filter, there's a product called FerriTab that is polyacrylate, which kinda flocs out oxidized iron via filter...this might be worth a try only when the sequestrant looks worn off as in my experiment it didn't appear to do a lot when the water was highly sequestered.
There is also a process of adding calcium via the skimmer in very specific circumstances that has been reported to reduce iron, but I never tried it and I haven't been able o find that thread again for a few years. I will try to take another look tomorrow after some assue gardening gets handled
Lastly, controlling ph to the low side, eg 7.2, should help. Hope that gives you a few idea to start kicking around. Will check back to hel refine strategies
Here are a few links:
Good morning. here's some additional info
1. iron test kit I use:
Amazon.com: LaMotte 2994 Insta-Test Iron and Copper Multi-Factor Test Strip Kit, 0-5ppm Iron Range, 0-3ppm Copper Range, 25 Count Tubes: Industrial Scientific
2. Info about Metal Trap: MetalTrap-PureStart metals-stains treatment products pools-spas
- the thing about "filtering" with green sand is you only get partial removal, it depends entirely on how much you're trying to remove (eg. If high ppm, slower flow rate, etc.), its expensive and not reusable after a point, and to treat existing water as opposed to pre-filtering, you'd have to rig up some kind of sump/flow.
For this reason, I think extra filtering with a slimebag attached to an actual return outlet makes a bit more sense. In all cases, mechanical filtration generally will not get all, but often will reduce to manageable levels.
3. Bens Iron removal strategy...ok, this is a complex set of steps, potentially dangerous, and by no means "trouble free" - so if you were to try it after exhausting other avenues, please follow steps exactly as this person is not around to supervise or assist. It is a 2 week process.
BTW, I have no idea if this would mess up you swg cell -- COULD BE TERRIBLE IDEA -- so I'm really really not recommending it...but for a comprehensive list of things people try, I'm including it for your reference
Good morning. here's some additional info
1. iron test kit I use:
Amazon.com: LaMotte 2994 Insta-Test Iron and Copper Multi-Factor Test Strip Kit, 0-5ppm Iron Range, 0-3ppm Copper Range, 25 Count Tubes: Industrial Scientific
2. Info about Metal Trap: MetalTrap-PureStart metals-stains treatment products pools-spas
- the thing about "filtering" with green sand is you only get partial removal, it depends entirely on how much you're trying to remove (eg. If high ppm, slower flow rate, etc.), its expensive and not reusable after a point, and to treat existing water as opposed to pre-filtering, you'd have to rig up some kind of sump/flow.
For this reason, I think extra filtering with a slimebag attached to an actual return outlet makes a bit more sense. In all cases, mechanical filtration generally will not get all, but often will reduce to manageable levels.
3. Bens Iron removal strategy...ok, this is a complex set of steps, potentially dangerous, and by no means "trouble free" - so if you were to try it after exhausting other avenues, please follow steps exactly as this person is not around to supervise or assist. It is a 2 week process.
BTW, I have no idea if this would mess up you swg cell -- COULD BE TERRIBLE IDEA -- so I'm really really not recommending it...but for a comprehensive list of things people try, I'm including it for your reference
Swamp woman, thank you for taking the time to write such a detailed response. . I'll try to address some of your questions.
I have a swg. However, I have a cartridge filter. I also have an in-floor cleaner so all my returns are the actual cleaning heads that pop up and retract back into the pool floor.
I have the metal test strips you mentioned, both for copper and iron. However, I can never tell the levels. The color variations seem very close. According to the test strips, I have almost no iron. Same as the pool store tests which rarely detect iron.
It so happens that I just bought Jack's Magic stain ID kit, sequestrant test kit, and 5 bottles of Jack's purple stuff. According to the stain ID tests, my stains are iron. The copper test did nothing but the iron test immediately removed the pool stains.
I'm really considering renting a pump and draining water until the shallow end is about a foot deep, then refill and maybe repeat.
I've also considered turning off the swg and manually adding chlorine for a couple weeks to see of the swg could be part of the problem. I've wondered of the high chlorine concentration inside the cell is making the iron oxidize.
I have spent a small fortune trying different stain treatments, metal sequestrant, and all kinds of metal trapping snake oil.
I currently have a Culator 4.0ppm metal remover in the pump basket. I've also purchased a few of their 1.0ppm bags with no real results.
Bypassing the pool heater was a last ditch effort to rule out some component in the heater corroding although the heat exchanger is copper, not iron. In any case, bypassing the heater is not a completely wasted effort since I'd like to be able to bypass it if it ever has a problem like a leak, etc.
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I have a swg. However, I have a cartridge filter. I also have an in-floor cleaner so all my returns are the actual cleaning heads that pop up and retract back into the pool floor.
I have the metal test strips you mentioned, both for copper and iron. However, I can never tell the levels. The color variations seem very close. According to the test strips, I have almost no iron. Same as the pool store tests which rarely detect iron.
It so happens that I just bought Jack's Magic stain ID kit, sequestrant test kit, and 5 bottles of Jack's purple stuff. According to the stain ID tests, my stains are iron. The copper test did nothing but the iron test immediately removed the pool stains.
I'm really considering renting a pump and draining water until the shallow end is about a foot deep, then refill and maybe repeat.
I've also considered turning off the swg and manually adding chlorine for a couple weeks to see of the swg could be part of the problem. I've wondered of the high chlorine concentration inside the cell is making the iron oxidize.
I have spent a small fortune trying different stain treatments, metal sequestrant, and all kinds of metal trapping snake oil.
I currently have a Culator 4.0ppm metal remover in the pump basket. I've also purchased a few of their 1.0ppm bags with no real results.
Bypassing the pool heater was a last ditch effort to rule out some component in the heater corroding although the heat exchanger is copper, not iron. In any case, bypassing the heater is not a completely wasted effort since I'd like to be able to bypass it if it ever has a problem like a leak, etc.
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I think the Culator only works for copper. I don't think the swg is the issue. If your water is brown right now get some polyfill pillow stuffing and put it in your skimmer baskets, it will absorb the iron.
I think that draining is only effective if:
You know and eliminate the source of iron
You have the iron sequestered, if there are stains you need to do an AA treatment to put the iron back into solution add sequestrant to keep it in solution and then drain.
I think that draining is only effective if:
You know and eliminate the source of iron
You have the iron sequestered, if there are stains you need to do an AA treatment to put the iron back into solution add sequestrant to keep it in solution and then drain.
The Culator site claims it will trap a variety of metals, iron included. That being said, I don't know that I've had any success using it. More like wishful thinking. It's definitely not cheap.
About the polyfill, I've seen those Youtube videos where polyfill is used to clear brown/orange rusty water. However, my water is perfectly clear. I can fill up a white bucket and it looks pristine. I only have metal staining that has precipitated on the surfaces.
I agree that I'd have to lift the stains with ascorbic acid and add sequestrant before draining for it to be effective.
About the polyfill, I've seen those Youtube videos where polyfill is used to clear brown/orange rusty water. However, my water is perfectly clear. I can fill up a white bucket and it looks pristine. I only have metal staining that has precipitated on the surfaces.
I agree that I'd have to lift the stains with ascorbic acid and add sequestrant before draining for it to be effective.
Hi Carlos.
Based on your responses, my guess is that you'll be happiest with immediate results of dilution combined with the Jacks purple which is supposed to be most aggressive with iron and works in high TDS.
But over time, if iron is somehow accumulating from soil blown in, or coming from swg salt itself, the slimebag on a return might prove to be less hassle if the Purple doesn't keep up.
Lastly, and forgive me if I already asked this...did you double check your swg to ensure it is connected to the bond wire/ was properly bonded on installation?
Based on your responses, my guess is that you'll be happiest with immediate results of dilution combined with the Jacks purple which is supposed to be most aggressive with iron and works in high TDS.
But over time, if iron is somehow accumulating from soil blown in, or coming from swg salt itself, the slimebag on a return might prove to be less hassle if the Purple doesn't keep up.
Lastly, and forgive me if I already asked this...did you double check your swg to ensure it is connected to the bond wire/ was properly bonded on installation?
Thank you for your responses. I am currently using Jack's purple and using their Sequest Test Kit to measure exactly how much sequestrant is in the pool. Right now, I'm keeping it a bit of the high side (30 ppm) but plan on keeping it around 20.
As far as using a slime bag on the returns, I'm unable to set that up as my returns are in-floor retractable heads (think lawn sprinkler heads) which are flush with the pool floor when not retracted. A possibility may be setting up a sump pump to run pool water thru the slime bag.
I recently checked all the bonding wires since I added a zinc anode and buried it in wet soil near my equipment pad.
I spoke with a gentleman named Rick at Jack's Magic and he was very helpful. He suggested I add their filter fiber to my cartridge filter as well as bringing my calcium hardness from 50 to about 225.
I'm going to hold off on adding the calcium since I plan to drain and replace some water in a couple weeks. I'd do it now but I'm about to travel out of the country and didn't want to risk throwing the chemistry way off right before I leave the pool unattended for a week.
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You might check the SWG cell. I am using a Compupool cell and the plates at the exit end are rusting badly. It started last season, but only noticed it when I opened this year. We started getting bad staining of all the plastic bits in the pool and I couldn't figure out where the iron was coming from. Now I know - in the process of replacing the 2 year old cell...
The salt cell was replaced last season. My cell is transparent so I can see the metal plates and they look ok.
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smforte
0
Checking back in Carlos.....and guess what...my stains are back too. I'm at a loss. The Jacks is getting so expensive I can't justify it to the hubs. I've already gon thru 5 bottles in 5 weeks. Going to continue following your thread for a magic cure..;/
I think the magic cure is to partly drain and refill. Even if that means having to buy more salt, stabilizer, and water. I think I'd still come out ahead.
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+1 on dilution...sorry I didn't quite grasp your comment about the in-floor cleaning system, ddnt realize that meant no return jets in te walls of the pool
How has Jacks purple at 30 ppm been working so far? I know for Smallpooldad, he was stain free if he maintained around 28.
How has Jacks purple at 30 ppm been working so far? I know for Smallpooldad, he was stain free if he maintained around 28.
Mine is transparent as well, you can't see the rust from the side or top, just from the end. My cell is only 2 years old, so I don't think age is necessarily a factor. I guess if you had the problem before replacing the cell, that would eliminate it. Might be worth a look if it is easy to check...
So far, 30ppm is keeping the pool looking great but I'm also keeping chlorine on the low side (3-4 ppm). Friday, chlorine was 5ppm and I started seeing some of the stain coming back so I turned off the swg and added more Jack's purple and the staining faded away.+1 on dilution...sorry I didn't quite grasp your comment about the in-floor cleaning system, ddnt realize that meant no return jets in te walls of the pool
How has Jacks purple at 30 ppm been working so far? I know for Smallpooldad, he was stain free if he maintained around 28.
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Well, 30ppm of Jacks may not be enough for my pool. I did the last stain removal 5 days ago and have kept the sequestrant level around 30ppm (using their sequestrant test kit) and the stains are still slowly coming back.
I'm really thinking that my next course of action will be to go thru stain removal again and while the iron is in suspension, replace large amounts of water. Then, after replacing the water, rebalance pool and add sequestrant.
I'm still waiting on the filter fiber stuff to be delivered so I'll also add that to my cartridge filter when it arrives.
I'm really thinking that my next course of action will be to go thru stain removal again and while the iron is in suspension, replace large amounts of water. Then, after replacing the water, rebalance pool and add sequestrant.
I'm still waiting on the filter fiber stuff to be delivered so I'll also add that to my cartridge filter when it arrives.
Well, since no amount of sequestrant seems to keep my metal stains away, I decided to partially drain my pool.
I added GLB metal magnet until the stains were completely lifted. The liner and fittings looked new as they always do after this step.
Since the metals were in suspension, I drained the pool until it was a foot deep in the shallow end since I have a vinyl liner.
I refilled the pool and added salt and stabilizer to replace what I lost by replacing water. I also added two bottles of Jack's purple.
This all happened Saturday. Sunday, all was well, pool looked amazing.
Today, much to my dismay, I can see some of the stains are returning. Chlorine did creep up to 4.0 so I'm thinking maybe I had the salt cell set too high. I normally only dose with liquid chlorine after a stain treatment but after replacing so much water, I was hoping my metal levels would be low enough to allow me to use the salt chlorinator.
Another possibility is that after refilling the pool, the pool was colder so we ran the pool heater for about 5 hours to reheat the pool. Once the pool was heated, I drained the heater and bypassed it. My equipment allows me to bypass the heater so water is not constantly running thru the heater exchanger.
To say I'm beyond frustrated would be an understatement. Testing my water with the Lamotte strips shows almost zero metals. I took a water sample to my pool store and they said my metals were .02 iron and .04 copper. I asked if he meant .2 and .4 but he insisted it was .02 and .04.
I was really hoping that replacing water would have at least helped. I'm on city water. Most of my neighbors have swimming pools, none of the ones I've asked have metal stain issues.
Is it possible that the metals are somehow permanently attached to the pool liner? The stains always appear in the same locations and the same irregular shapes. I would think that when the iron drops out of solution, it would not create the exact same stain patterns.
[UPDATE]
In desperation, I turned off my SWG and added a half gallon of GLB Sequa Sol sequestrant. I also added 50lb of Calcium Chloride as recommended by the people that make Jack's magic. They suggested I bring by CH to around 220-240. I knew that adding 50lb would cloud the water but I was so frustrated I knew I wouldn't be swimming today so I'll let the filter clear up the cloudiness in the next day or so.
Oddly enough, I checked on the pool about an hour later and the water is a little cloudy as expected. However, the stains had faded to the point where I can barely see them. Soooo, TF-100 kit in hand, I decided to retest the water to figure out what could have possibly reversed the staining. Upon testing the water, I see that adding the half gallon of sequestrant wiped out all my chlorine and lowered pH from 7.2 to 6.9. I guess the acidic water without chlorine removed the stain. I haven't found any information regarding the effect of calcium chloride on either pH or chlorine so I'm assuming the changes are attributed to the GLB Sequa Sol sequestrant.
However, bottom line is that even after some dilution, I still have enough metals in my water to be a problem. I think I'll leave the SWG off and manually dose the pool with bleach for the next few days then start the SWG at a low setting.
I added GLB metal magnet until the stains were completely lifted. The liner and fittings looked new as they always do after this step.
Since the metals were in suspension, I drained the pool until it was a foot deep in the shallow end since I have a vinyl liner.
I refilled the pool and added salt and stabilizer to replace what I lost by replacing water. I also added two bottles of Jack's purple.
This all happened Saturday. Sunday, all was well, pool looked amazing.
Today, much to my dismay, I can see some of the stains are returning. Chlorine did creep up to 4.0 so I'm thinking maybe I had the salt cell set too high. I normally only dose with liquid chlorine after a stain treatment but after replacing so much water, I was hoping my metal levels would be low enough to allow me to use the salt chlorinator.
Another possibility is that after refilling the pool, the pool was colder so we ran the pool heater for about 5 hours to reheat the pool. Once the pool was heated, I drained the heater and bypassed it. My equipment allows me to bypass the heater so water is not constantly running thru the heater exchanger.
To say I'm beyond frustrated would be an understatement. Testing my water with the Lamotte strips shows almost zero metals. I took a water sample to my pool store and they said my metals were .02 iron and .04 copper. I asked if he meant .2 and .4 but he insisted it was .02 and .04.
I was really hoping that replacing water would have at least helped. I'm on city water. Most of my neighbors have swimming pools, none of the ones I've asked have metal stain issues.
Is it possible that the metals are somehow permanently attached to the pool liner? The stains always appear in the same locations and the same irregular shapes. I would think that when the iron drops out of solution, it would not create the exact same stain patterns.
[UPDATE]
In desperation, I turned off my SWG and added a half gallon of GLB Sequa Sol sequestrant. I also added 50lb of Calcium Chloride as recommended by the people that make Jack's magic. They suggested I bring by CH to around 220-240. I knew that adding 50lb would cloud the water but I was so frustrated I knew I wouldn't be swimming today so I'll let the filter clear up the cloudiness in the next day or so.
Oddly enough, I checked on the pool about an hour later and the water is a little cloudy as expected. However, the stains had faded to the point where I can barely see them. Soooo, TF-100 kit in hand, I decided to retest the water to figure out what could have possibly reversed the staining. Upon testing the water, I see that adding the half gallon of sequestrant wiped out all my chlorine and lowered pH from 7.2 to 6.9. I guess the acidic water without chlorine removed the stain. I haven't found any information regarding the effect of calcium chloride on either pH or chlorine so I'm assuming the changes are attributed to the GLB Sequa Sol sequestrant.
However, bottom line is that even after some dilution, I still have enough metals in my water to be a problem. I think I'll leave the SWG off and manually dose the pool with bleach for the next few days then start the SWG at a low setting.
So as a result of my recent close call with algae and 7 day SLAM, I decided to go ahead and clean my salt cell as well as the 6-way water distribution valve for my in-floor cleaning system.
Once I removed both, I can see very dark brown rust stains on the base of the cell as well as the inside of the pvc pipes in the water distribution valve.
I'm wondering if the salt cell creating chlorine and higher pH is what's causing my water iron to precipitate.
My skimmer basket, and pump basket are bright white. Only the items in close proximity of the downstream flow from the swg look like this.
Once I removed both, I can see very dark brown rust stains on the base of the cell as well as the inside of the pvc pipes in the water distribution valve.
I'm wondering if the salt cell creating chlorine and higher pH is what's causing my water iron to precipitate.
My skimmer basket, and pump basket are bright white. Only the items in close proximity of the downstream flow from the swg look like this.
timb9
0
Carlos, whats your current status with the ongoing metal issues in your pool? I've read your posts a few times now because your situation is literally identical to mine. I've done all the same things and using most of the same treatments. I did a partial drain and refill and still having problems. Its really unbelievably frustrating I have a swg as well and always thought that was the cause. I haven't even ran it this year to see if it made a difference without it, but after shocking upon opening for this summer, the water is bright green from the iron. The tests I've had done on the fill and the latest pool water, show no iron. I have dirt and rocks that are in a position where the rain that hits that area runs off into the pool, leaving big streaks of dirt on one side- could definitely be contributing. Let me know what you've done and if you've had any success. Thx.
I have a swg as well and always thought that was the cause. I haven't even ran it this year to see if it made a difference without it, but after shocking upon opening for this summer, the water is bright green from the iron. The tests I've had done on the fill and the latest pool water, show no iron. I have dirt and rocks that are in a position where the rain that hits that area runs off into the pool, leaving big streaks of dirt on one side- could definitely be contributing. Let me know what you've done and if you've had any success. Thx.