Mastertemp Heater Igniter Resistance?

[Cpc]

Two things real quick. Well, maybe three.

Try running TWO ground wires. One from the flame holder (thin metal plate where you have it in right the second time), and another from the bolt on the manifold. Run them both back to the yellow ground wire inside your control box.

I've read this whole thing and I don't recall seeing that you replaced the stack flue sensor or not? We see a bunch of bad ones and don't get the error code for it either. Swap um out and all is good. Just a thought and they aren't expensive.

As as far as the prior comment made about the ground fix and these heaters being junk I just have to say this wasn't Pentairs fault. It was gas valve Manf who changed some stuff and didn't tell Pentair until issues started popping up. If you notice on the link someone posted to the ground repair, it's dated 9-14. Unfortunately I've been in this industry for too long (but it's such easy money), I've seen the good the bad and the ugly in all heaters. Just left a house with a raypak that needs a new board but you'd never know it testing wise unless you've run up against the "certain" issue that arises - cfh then spk until the cows come home with no flame anywhere. Anywho, all Manf have some issues with products now and again. However I do 100% agree with the Jandy heater remark, lol. Brings back memories of the first gen Hayward heaters. Eh, memories? I ment nightmares and night terrors (which led to bed wetting �&#56841.

See if the double ground helps and refresh my memory on the stack flue sensor if you don't mind.

 

[wpbucher]

So the tech finally showed up. He replaced the main board (the one under the key pad), and the heater did not fire.
So he installed the old board.

He checked a bunch of stuff with his multimeter.

He replaced the igniter. Heater didn't fire.

He then unscrewed the top of the gas regulator


He then took a flat head screw driver and turned the insert in the regulator back and forth a half a turn three or four times.



He stated that sometimes a little piece of dirt gets stuck in the regulator. Turning the insert will dislodge the dirt.
I think the insert is the gas pressure adjustment knob.

He attempted to start the heater and the heater started. He let it achieve the temperature and shut off.
He then increased the temperature and the heater fired.

So it appears my problem was dirt in the gas regulator.

I hope my little odyssey will assist others....

Thanks for your help and suggestions TFP!!!

 

[f3justusc]

Thanks for sharing! I am about to install a heater so this information is very timely.

 

[ps0303]

Yeah I personally think those regulators are crappy for this type of appliance. I see those mostly inside on stoves, water heaters, and gas clothes dryers.

Glad someone was able to get you back and working again.

 

[wpbucher]

Ugh!!! I thought I would go out for a test. Heater failed to fire. Same old - same old. I left a voicemail for the tech and mentioned the flue gas sensor.

Here are some pictures of our gas meter:



If the regulator is crappy....I was thinking that perhaps I should have it replaced if we need to call a plumber to check the gas pressure/flow...etc.

For my meter and pool heater, what regulator would you recommend?

Thanks for your assistance.

 

[stebs]

Have you checked voltage to the igniter when it's attempting to light while warm?

 

[wpbucher]

Have you checked voltage to the igniter when it's attempting to light while warm?

Yes. It tested fine. As part of the troubleshooting....I replaced the ignition control module. That had no affect on the problem.

I just went out this morning and attempted to start when unit was cold. I turned off the circuit breaker for 10 seconds then turned on the heater. It failed to ignite.

So before the tech came, the heater consistently started cold.

While the tech was present the heater suddenly started working.

After the tech left, the heater fails to start.

Now the heater won't start "cold"....so I'm REALLY dead-in-the-water as far as heating the pool.

So the main board, ignition control module, and the igniter have been replaced.
I've grounded the unit.

I spoke with the tech this morning. He thinks it might be a gas pressure issue....just because there is not a lot more to replace on the heater.

I told him about the flue gas sensor. He said he would do some research on that. He also stated that he has never had to replace a flue gas sensor...they never go bad....at least in his experience.

He also said that he has never had to add the grounding wires either....so maybe he doesn't have that much experience.

I'll let you know.

- - - Updated - - -

Try running TWO ground wires. One from the flame holder (thin metal plate where you have it in right the second time), and another from the bolt on the manifold. Run them both back to the yellow ground wire inside your control box.

I added the additional ground wire from the bolt of the manifold to the control box. Problem persists.

With three wires added .... I think we can rule out a "ground issue".

Thanks for the suggestion.

 

[wpbucher]

So the tech is coming tomorrow. I think it is either the flue gas sensor or an issue with the gas coming into the heater. When he was here last...after multiple attempts to start the heater the tech decided to replace the igniter. When he touched the metal bar holding the igniter in place it was VERY hot. Confirming my check that the ignition control module is sending 120v to the igniter and the igniter is heating up.

The tech said he would bring some device to measure the gas coming into the heater. Any other suggestions? The gas line and heater were installed two years ago. Should the tech remove the cap from the sediment trap?

Going through the owners manual I did notice that it specified 1" pipe for everything except the tube into the heater. The plumber who hooked up the line used 3/4" to come off the 1" feed line (see previous post for pictures of my gas meter). My understanding is that the gas from my meter through the 1" feed line is coming in at a high pressure...thus the regulator to reduce the pressure. Would this have any affect? It worked for two seasons...but perhaps this setup is less than optimal and makes it prone to some problem.

Wife is mad...kids are mad....I just want this thing fixed when he comes tomorrow.

Any suggestions appreciated.

 

[ps0303]

If it were the stack flu sensor, I would suspect the board would alert you to this. The LED next to SFS would be lit. Gas pressure, maybe. But if it has worked for several years I wouldn't think so. Does your regulator have a vent line attached to it? Usually on natural gas they don't as it dissipates faster than propane so in a propane set up they vent it out about 5 feet from the device.

Oh and BTW, I replace plenty of the stack flu sensors. Pretty common issue on these units.

 

[stebs]

You have a 10 pound gas meter so yes, high pressure to the regulator then drops to under a pound at that reg... That type of setup is becoming more and more common and I'm betting the stuff in the owners manual about gas sizing doesn't take that into consideration. Therefore, I wouldn't put too much concern to the size of your gas piping... I'm assuming he's bringing a manometer with him to check gas pressure which will tell him the status of the gas regulator at the heater...

 

[Pool Clown]

The tech said he would bring some device to measure the gas coming into the heater. Should the tech remove the cap from the sediment trap?


Any suggestions appreciated.

I would have thought gas pressure would be tested on the first trip, while he was adjusting/clearing dirt from the regulator. Bring this to his attention if he tells you there will be a charge for the second trip.

If the sediment trap isn't under the union (can't see for sure in the pic) it is in the wrong place, and/or situated incorrectly.

 

[wpbucher]

The heater has been running spectacularly for the past month!!!

About a month ago, the tech was supposed to come on a Wednesday. My daughter had a soccer tournament in Waynesboro, PA the evening prior. I took my F-250 to the game. I dropped her off and went for a bite at the local Sheetz. I noticed that after I dropped her off the truck was pulling to the left and not driving well. Upon return, the front passenger wheel was very hot. Turns out that the caliper failed to release....thus dead truck.

I had it taken to Hagerstown Ford and stayed overnight with my parents. My wife and daughter caught a ride home with a teamates's family.

So I was stuck in Maryland when the tech came to fix the heater!!! I spoke to him. He stated that the hole of the regulator was clogged and that he had used a toothpick to clean it out. He stated that the heater started, "Nine times out of ten".



So I get home Wednesday evening after getting soaked for $1000 (new rotors, calipers, etc)...and try the heater. It went through its cycle: (1) fan for 20 seconds (2) click (3) after about 3 seconds a violent woosh and the heater started. I would sometimes smell gas just before the violent woosh.

The next morning, I did some research about the regulator. I learned there was a diaphram inside.

I figured I could do better than a toothpick. So I got my air compressor and my air blast attachment and went to work on the hole.


While blowing it out, I thought I saw a bit/plug of dirt come out.

After blowing it out, I thought that perhaps I forced dirt down into the diaphram. I then grabbed my little 2 gallon shop-vac (small hose) and stuck it on the top to try to suck dirt out of the hole that might have been dislodged a bit from the blowing.

I then tried the heater. This is the sequence: (1) fan for 20 seconds (2) click (3) within 1/2 second a very quite woosh.

It was obvious that the heater was working properly. The heater should not start with a loud violent woosh.

Heater has worked everytime since.....with a quiet woosh.

So my problem was dirt/cobweb in the little hole on top of the regulator that prevented the regulator from working properly and thus affected the flow of gas to the heater.

Hope this helps out folks.

Bottom line: If your MasterTemp starts with a violent woosh, try cleaning out the hole on top of the regulator.

Thanks for your help TFP!!!

 

[ps0303]

That regulator is not the correct/best one for the job. That is more of an regulator for a stove/dryer etc. The correct one would have a vent line running from it. I don't use those types for this reason alone.

Just as an example, here is a correct type of regulator for a gas pool heater: Welding | Regulators Flowmeters | Gas Regulator Second Stage Compact 650,000 Btu 1/2 In. X 1/2In. Fnpt | M1880265 - GlobalIndustrial.com

 

[Pool Clown]

Next time, take the plug out before you start blasting it with air. As you thought, anything you blow, will go into the regulator. It may still be in there, and just working, or you got lucky, and it came out.

 

[wpbucher]

That regulator is not the correct/best one for the job. That is more of an regulator for a stove/dryer etc. The correct one would have a vent line running from it. I don't use those types for this reason alone.

Just as an example, here is a correct type of regulator for a gas pool heater: Welding | Regulators Flowmeters | Gas Regulator Second Stage Compact 650,000 Btu 1/2 In. X 1/2In. Fnpt | M1880265 - GlobalIndustrial.com

Wow!!! This is the first time that I'm hearing that I have the wrong regulator. We built our house 3 years ago. I have numerous problems where the solution included, "Well, the part installed is not the best for your application." Why can't I find competent craftspeople.....rather than mind-numb-just-throw-it-in type people? I feel like I have to become a "subject matter expert" in everything so that I can insist that contractors "do it right". It is just frustrating. I wish that Pentair had something about regulators in the owners manual to tell pool owners what type of regulator to use. Thanks for you guidance.

- - - Updated - - -

Next time, take the plug out before you start blasting it with air. As you thought, anything you blow, will go into the regulator. It may still be in there, and just working, or you got lucky, and it came out.

Good idea.

Other than turn off the gas upstream, is there any "trick" or important info that I need to know to remove and re-install the plug? Are the threads backwards? Does it need to be torqued to a certain poundage? Is there a gasket that I need to replace if I remove the plug? Will the gas line need to be bled after I re-install?

 

[ps0303]

My post #44 of this thread I said these regulators are crappy. So, I told you so. Just kidding. But I did. LOL

As for Pentair, they do tell people that their units need a certain type of regulator and if it is not used and a warranty call is made to them, they can deny the claim and tell you that the unit is now out of warranty because the correct part wasn't used. I've seen it happen on another guy who USE to be in the business.

 

[Pool Clown]

Brass plug just vents the regulator housing (diaphragm), just unscrew and clear the hole in it. No special torque.

 

[mojo1]

Mine has not regulator....