Maryland - Catalina Builder Went Under and it Seems they are Leaving Customers to Fend for Themselves

[JamesW]

One of the most important concepts in contracts is the idea of “A meeting of the minds”, which means that all parties understand what each party will do and what each party will get.

When details are left out, it forces everyone to make assumptions, and this inevitably leads to problems because each party will make different assumptions.

Meeting of the Minds

www.law.cornell.edu

Meeting of the Minds

A meeting of the minds occurs when comprehension of and mutual agreement on all terms of a contract have been acknowledged by the parties involved.

www.investopedia.com

 

[JoyfulNoise]

I remember when we built our pool the builder (owner) came by with the final proposal and (no detail) design of the pool. He then sat down and we went through every line of the contract. But, even in that circumstance, the “contract” was still pretty bare-bones/generic/boiler-plate in my opinion, I was definitely expecting more pages. But we talked over all aspects and we had already visited several reference pools so I had a good feeling of the guy and what it would be like to work with him. He did give us the weekend to review the contract and then called Monday morning to answer any further questions. We agreed to sign it and he said he would swing by later in the day to pick it up. The build went smoothly except for a few minor hiccups and he only missed the completion date by a week. This also included a huge upfront revision of the plans when we discovered that all of our services ran right through the middle of backyard and we had to relocate the entire pool to the side yard. The builder did not charge us for the design change and the extra time he spent getting property measurements. Even then, a one week delay in swimming was not a big deal.

In hindsight, I look back at the contract and consider my noob self lucky as there are loopholes and language in it big enough to drive a 2 ton excavator through. Had things gone really south with the project, I definitely would have been in the weaker position. Thankfully the builder was a decent fellow and there were no unpleasantries about him. There’s definitely many aspects of the pool that I would do differently now that I know better so if there is ever a “next time” I’ll be better off. But even under optimal circumstances, good pool build contracts are hard to come by.

 

[Dirk]

This is all good stuff! @ajw22, is there any sort of "Pool Build Contracts" Further Reading article? I suppose TFP might not want to go down that road, as it would in essence be offering legal advice, but we give all sorts of "before a build" and "during a build" and "after a build" advice. Some "what to look for in a contract" advice would be in order. But maybe posters offering contract advice and a TFP article about contracts are two different things when it comes to what TFP wants to get involved with. What say you Mods?

 

[JoyfulNoise]

This is all good stuff! @ajw22, is there any sort of "Pool Build Contracts" Further Reading article? I suppose TFP might not want to go down that road, as it would in essence be offering legal advice, but we give all sorts of "before a build" and "during a build" and "after a build" advice. Some "what to look for in a contract" advice would be in order. But maybe posters offering contract advice and a TFP article about contracts are two different things when it comes to what TFP wants to get involved with. What say you Mods?

This has some elements -

Construction Best Practices - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

It might be a good idea to write up a section near the top on Pool Build Contracts and have examples of what elements are absolutely necessary as well as possibly showing examples of “detailed” and “poor” contracts.

 

[PoolGate]

This is all good stuff! @ajw22, is there any sort of "Pool Build Contracts" Further Reading article? I suppose TFP might not want to go down that road, as it would in essence be offering legal advice, but we give all sorts of "before a build" and "during a build" and "after a build" advice. Some "what to look for in a contract" advice would be in order. But maybe posters offering contract advice and a TFP article about contracts are two different things when it comes to what TFP wants to get involved with. What say you Mods?

Problem is, I don't think any pool contractor is going to change anything in their contract to appease any customer. The customer can try another builder, but they are most likely all the same. Add to that that pools are still screaming in popularity I think you'll simply get laughter if you even suggest changing a contract. Heck if people can get the contractor to include actual part numbers for the equipment they are doing good.

 

[ajw22]

This is all good stuff! @ajw22, is there any sort of "Pool Build Contracts" Further Reading article? I suppose TFP might not want to go down that road, as it would in essence be offering legal advice, but we give all sorts of "before a build" and "during a build" and "after a build" advice.

There is a bit of direction in the beginning of Construction Best Practices - Further Reading

Some "what to look for in a contract" advice would be in order. But maybe posters offering contract advice and a TFP article about contracts are two different things when it comes to what TFP wants to get involved with. What say you Mods?

First issue is that contract laws vary by state.

Simple instructions for life are consult with an attorney before signing any contract.

Trying to tell people what to look for in a contract is telling then to be a DIY lawyer without sleeping at a Holiday Inn. It rarely ends up well.

There is a big difference between residential contracts and commercial contracts. In contracting the one who develops the contract biases in their favor and then the other party tries to negotiate things back to even. He who develops the contract has the upper hand. If you want a good contract then have your lawyer develop it and include it with the bid package when you solicit interest in building your pool. See how well that works and the prices you get.

 

[JamesW]

Any competent builder should know these things and they should be willing to at least give some sort of answer.

How are they going to complete the project if they don't know what they are going to do?

For things like level, the builder has to have some sort of standard.

It can't just be whatever.

 

[Getitrite]

Thankfully the builder was a decent fellow and there were no unpleasantries about him.

Just curious @JoyfulNoise Matt - is he still in business ?

 

[Toxophilite]

Problem is, I don't think any pool contractor is going to change anything in their contract to appease any customer. The customer can try another builder, but they are most likely all the same. Add to that that pools are still screaming in popularity I think you'll simply get laughter if you even suggest changing a contract. Heck if people can get the contractor to include actual part numbers for the equipment they are doing good.

My wife is an attorney, so every contract she sees is going to need her input, right??? Well, contractor contracts are pretty much non-negotiable for "editing" but she always tries to no avail. No, they are not going to change anything that I have ever seen.

 

[ajw22]

Well, contractor contracts are pretty much non-negotiable for "editing" but she always tries to no avail. No, they are not going to change anything that I have ever seen.

I am not an attorney but I read every contract before I sign it and cross out clauses I object to and initial it and then sign the contract. Depending on the companies response they may or may not get my work.

 

[JamesW]

The basic idea is just to make sure that everyone’s expectations are clear and understood.

This does not require an attorney.

It’s not that hard to say things like “I need the project to be done by (Date)” or “When will the project be done”

What’s included and what is not included?

What are part numbers etc?

None of this is complicated or unreasonable.

None of this needs a lawyer.

It’s simply about being clear about what everyone is expected to do and what everyone will get.

It’s not rocket surgery.

Lawyers just add a bunch of legal language that is mostly worthless.

Sure, have a lawyer read the contract and advise you but read it yourself and see if it makes sense and if it answers your questions.

Why is it so hard for a contractor to tell you how long a project will take?

They do projects all the time, so where is the big mystery?

 

[Toxophilite]

I am not an attorney but I read every contract before I sign it and cross out clauses I object to and initial it and then sign the contract. Depending on the companies response they may or may not get my work.

The terms of the build are part of negotiations and are always open game for us. Having someone on hand that could even negotiate the boilerplate for anything that could change the rights of the company or the rights of the customer is another, as these decisions are not made at the sales level and are worked out through departments that couldn't care less about sales. If they are a company of any repute, their legal department is not going to entertain continuous contract analysis and revisions. That's the part I've never seen them budge on and always willing to walk away from a sale over.

 

[ajw22]

If they are a company of any repute, their legal department is not going to entertain continuous contract analysis and revisions.

I think few Pool Builders are of a size to have a legal department.

Everything is negotiable for a price.

 

[Toxophilite]

I think few Pool Builders are of a size to have a legal department.

Everything is negotiable for a price.

That is true!!! The negotiable part is what matters most, anyway.

 

[Dirk]

When I had kitchen cab's replaced, the proposal was in the five figures. I signed the proposal and asked for the contract. He said "That is the contract." He was a licensed CA contractor and should have known it wasn't, not even close. I finally convinced him to sign mine, so I wrote one just for that job. But as all of you point out, that was by far the exception to the rule. I just happened upon a contractor that wanted the work. That was some 10+ years ago. Those days are gone (at least for pool contractors). They call the shots. Your only leverage is looking for a different contractor if you don't like a contract... And in today's market, that's not really an option.

But at least the points in this thread can guide a consumer on what is supposed to be in a contract. James has captured quite a few necessities. Then a consumer can make a more informed decision. That's probably all we can do.

 

[JamesW]

A pool builder who has installed 100 pools knows what they do.

They know how long it takes.

They know what their quality metrics are.

They know what equipment they will use.

How would they not know these things?

Why wouldn’t they tell you if they know?

The only reason is that maybe you won’t like some detail.

The builder can’t tell me if it will take a week, a month, a year, ten years?

Sure, I understand that there are contingencies and unexpected things that can happen, but at least give me some idea about how long things typically take on average and what the longest and shortest times have been for your 100 jobs so I at least have some idea.

Also, put in some sort of timeframe that will allow me to cancel and get reimbursed for my trouble if the project isn’t done by a certain time.

A competent builder should be able to give timeframes for completion of every stage.

 

[Rocket J Squirrel]

Their entire construction management education consists of learning what is the proper paint with which to slap their name on the side of their truck door.

I had a contractor who shall remain unidentified, who must not have been smarter than the average bear. Instead of painting his truck door, he designed and ordered a custom magnetic sign to stick on the door. When he got it, he realized his truck door was aluminum.

Problem is, I don't think any pool contractor is going to change anything in their contract to appease any customer.

The PB who re-plastered my pool had a contract which specified they would not be responsible for any damage they caused on or to my property. I couldn't live with that and asked them to strike it out, and they did, to my surprise. So it doesn't hurt to ask.

 

[ajw22]

A competent builder should be able to give timeframes for completion of every stage.

A Pool Builder could manage the timeframe for the job when they employed and controlled the various trades necessary.

Few PBs are vertically organized anymore. With subcontractors they hardly control the timeframe or quality. PBs are looking to make as few contractual commitments to the customer as possible since they have little control over their subcontractors.

Subcontracting has killed many PBS and enabled OBs for those with the fortitude to manage on their own. With an OB you cut out the middle man and negotiate and contract directly with the people who are doing the work. The OB does need to know what he/she is doing or the subcontractors will run then over.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Just curious @JoyfulNoise Matt - is he still in business ?

He was for a few years after my build but he got tired of being low-balled by all the fly-by-night pool builders that swooped into the area. He was a small builder who probably only did a dozen or so pools per year. Plus he hit retirement age and wanted to move to TX to be closer to his daughter and grandchild. He had hopes that his son would inherit his business but that didn’t work out … so the family business was closed down. Sad too because he was a no-nonsense kind of guy and didn’t push extravagant ideas. He offered up options for every build and just let his customers choose what they wanted. He was in the business for over 30 years and all the subs that worked on my pool had nothing but nice things to say about him. I hope he’s enjoying his retirement and being with family.

 

[HeyEng]

This is all good stuff! @ajw22, is there any sort of "Pool Build Contracts" Further Reading article? I suppose TFP might not want to go down that road, as it would in essence be offering legal advice, but we give all sorts of "before a build" and "during a build" and "after a build" advice. Some "what to look for in a contract" advice would be in order. But maybe posters offering contract advice and a TFP article about contracts are two different things when it comes to what TFP wants to get involved with. What say you Mods?

This could be a very, VERY slippery slope. I think it is great to help people OWN A POOL and even some general advice about having one built is good, too. But going into details of a construction contract? *IF* I was legal counsel to those running this board (and I am NOT, and this is NOT legal advice, otherwise a bill would follow said advice) I would tell 'em to avoid that like the plague. Too many land mines.

There is a reason 75% of contract law cases that are used in law school are CONSTRUCTION CONTRACTS. You would think that this area of law has been well settled over the years, but nope...they are keeping a LOT of attorneys pretty busy.