Here he is hard at work on my financial investments.
He assures me that all is well and there is no need to worry about anything.
He assures me that all is well and there is no need to worry about anything.
Maryland - Catalina Builder Went Under and it Seems they are Leaving Customers to Fend for Themselves
- Thread starter PoolGate
- Start date
- Jun 7, 2017
- 9,975
- Pool Size
- 29000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Jandy Aquapure 1400
I talked to each of the subs on my pool build and most of the conversations were very frank regarding Catalina. The electrician actually was chastising Catalina right in front of me on the phone because they screwed up the electrical equipment for his installation. All had negative things to say about them. I'm guessing with the resurgence of pools that many of these subs put Catalina on the bottom of their priority list. They probably had real issues getting subs for their jobs. Wouldn't surprise me if they jacked up rates for Catalina just because they didn't like them.
- May 23, 2015
- 25,705
- Pool Size
- 16000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
That must have been very disconcerting to be in the middle of a build like a pool and hear the subs bash the builder like that. Glad it worked out for you.
- Jun 7, 2017
- 9,975
- Pool Size
- 29000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Jandy Aquapure 1400
Somewhere out there is a negative review I wrote. It's fairly long and discusses what I've recounted here.
Y'alls have to hand it to @Dirk.
Half because he's kinda laid up and can't reach it, but also because when something falls into one of his specialties, the rest of us are all
Without him.
Half because he's kinda laid up and can't reach it, but also because when something falls into one of his specialties, the rest of us are all
Without him.
Sunrise Premiere Pool Builders LLC
Sunrise Premiere Pool Builders LLC in Arnold, MD | Photos | Reviews | 943 building permits for $7,188,900. 3 reviews: 'Sunrise did an awesome job. Pool and hot tub finished April 2020. I've known them for over 20 years and have referred them numerous' Home Improvement, Contractor (Corppart) Home...
www.buildzoom.com
Here is an example of someone using the guaranty fund process to recover money.
- Nov 12, 2017
- 12,647
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
I don't like being wronged, and tend to hang on to the regret of not doing anything about it if I don't. Its not always about the money.
And then there is the "noble" aspect of going after a bad contractor, however futile it might seem (or be). The reason there are so many contractors skirting the law, and screwing consumers, is because consumers don't do anything about it when it happens. The court process is mostly to blame (cost, time, stress, learning-curve), but most people don't like confrontation, so they take their lumps. If everyone sued contractors for their misdeeds, there would be fewer misdeeds perpetrated on everyone.
The problem is, contractors take advantage of the numbers game: they know 90% of people won't sue them, but they are making so much with their illegal practices that they can easily wait out any legal proceedings and then, way down the line, if they happen to lose a case, they just pay what's owed. They're still way ahead. And judges don't usually give out any sort of punitive damages, so the only money the contractor has to pony up is what he should have already paid, but nothing more. They don't even need to pay a lawyer if they know they're going to lose. So the contractor has no incentive to "go straight." He'll be grifting again the next day.
State Contractors Boards also are not much help, because they won't publish any complaints. Not until they mount up, anyway. And bond companies? Phhht. They're basically insurance companies that get to "rule themselves." They decide what gets paid out, their is no oversight on that at the State level. At least that was my experience in CA. And that's a State that is ultra-pro-consumer. It's not a great system.
Diligently acquiring and checking on referrals before hiring a contractor is really the only pro-active defense.
And then there is the "noble" aspect of going after a bad contractor, however futile it might seem (or be). The reason there are so many contractors skirting the law, and screwing consumers, is because consumers don't do anything about it when it happens. The court process is mostly to blame (cost, time, stress, learning-curve), but most people don't like confrontation, so they take their lumps. If everyone sued contractors for their misdeeds, there would be fewer misdeeds perpetrated on everyone.
The problem is, contractors take advantage of the numbers game: they know 90% of people won't sue them, but they are making so much with their illegal practices that they can easily wait out any legal proceedings and then, way down the line, if they happen to lose a case, they just pay what's owed. They're still way ahead. And judges don't usually give out any sort of punitive damages, so the only money the contractor has to pony up is what he should have already paid, but nothing more. They don't even need to pay a lawyer if they know they're going to lose. So the contractor has no incentive to "go straight." He'll be grifting again the next day.
State Contractors Boards also are not much help, because they won't publish any complaints. Not until they mount up, anyway. And bond companies? Phhht. They're basically insurance companies that get to "rule themselves." They decide what gets paid out, their is no oversight on that at the State level. At least that was my experience in CA. And that's a State that is ultra-pro-consumer. It's not a great system.
Diligently acquiring and checking on referrals before hiring a contractor is really the only pro-active defense.
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- Nov 12, 2017
- 12,647
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
RE: BBB. Worse scammers than the scammers. They take money from businesses they "accredit." The end. It's not legit for that reason alone. You virtually pay for your rating. I don't actually know what it takes to lose your rating, but once you have it, and you continue to subscribe, the BBB generally has your back.
- May 23, 2015
- 25,705
- Pool Size
- 16000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
Society (US at least) has spent the last 40 years screaming “COLLEGE, COLLEGE, COLLEGE!!! You’ll never succeed in life if you don’t go to college!” at every school aged kid and family while gutting every school district of its trades programs and alternative degree tracks. And, by and large, parents and kids have listened to that advice. Is it any wonder nowadays that we scrape the bottom of the barrel in terms of finding warm bodies to do trades work? Kids that do well working with their hands learn both skills AND professional/honorable conduct in school. Those lessons translate into a person better capable of doing a job and doing it with integrity.
And I say this as someone that went to college … college is NOT for everyone nor should it be. Better to have qualified tradesmen with a strong work ethic than a half-baked middling college grad neurotically fretting about existential questions and trying to pay off mountains of useless educational debt on a barista’s wage …
And I say this as someone that went to college … college is NOT for everyone nor should it be. Better to have qualified tradesmen with a strong work ethic than a half-baked middling college grad neurotically fretting about existential questions and trying to pay off mountains of useless educational debt on a barista’s wage …
Dirk's take on BBB is the same as mine. As a small business owner, I was courted to join BBB since 1974.........I never did.
It was apparent they were interested in getting MY money but not set up (or interested) to help the end user. The sales pitch they continually used on me was, if I didn't join, then I MUST be a sub-standard business........it was more akin to a threat.
At one time, their accreditation may have meant something but it has not for the last 30 years, at least.
It was apparent they were interested in getting MY money but not set up (or interested) to help the end user. The sales pitch they continually used on me was, if I didn't join, then I MUST be a sub-standard business........it was more akin to a threat.
At one time, their accreditation may have meant something but it has not for the last 30 years, at least.
The BBB is still useful as a source of information similar to Yelp or Google reviews.
As shown below, 100 complaints in the last 3 years and 61 in the last 12 months is a useful warning to avoid any contact with the companies.
You can read the reviews to see the specific complaints.
Accreditation does not mean very much as the businesses mostly buy their accreditation, but the BBB will revoke accreditation if they receive enough complaints.
They did finally pull the accreditation of Pink Energy, but only after they received hundreds of complaints.
1,597 complaints closed in last 3 years
1,140 complaints closed in last 12 months
www.bbb.org
Filing a complaint does put some pressure on a business to make things right.
There are many different places you can file a complaint with to pressure a company to remedy a situation.
Good companies do care about their reputation and they will generally try to address complaints made on public review boards, but good companies rarely allow the customer to get to the point where they need to file a bad review.
As shown below, 100 complaints in the last 3 years and 61 in the last 12 months is a useful warning to avoid any contact with the companies.
You can read the reviews to see the specific complaints.
Accreditation does not mean very much as the businesses mostly buy their accreditation, but the BBB will revoke accreditation if they receive enough complaints.
They did finally pull the accreditation of Pink Energy, but only after they received hundreds of complaints.
1,597 complaints closed in last 3 years
1,140 complaints closed in last 12 months
Pink Energy | BBB Business Profile | Better Business Bureau
Not BBB Accredited. Solar Energy Equipment Dealers in Mooresville, NC. See BBB rating, reviews, complaints, and more.
Filing a complaint does put some pressure on a business to make things right.
There are many different places you can file a complaint with to pressure a company to remedy a situation.
Good companies do care about their reputation and they will generally try to address complaints made on public review boards, but good companies rarely allow the customer to get to the point where they need to file a bad review.
The issue with any review sites are that they don’t accommodate bad customers. Customers that want a free this or that and then leave a bad review after not getting it. Sometimes the customer tries explaining their issue and it’s obviously not the companies fault, but you actually have to read the reviews to know that. But seeing a string of recent complaints should make you dig deeper.
Positive reviews aren’t any better. I used to work with a guy (from another country) who told me he and lots of friends worked for an Amazon review business where they just wrote positive reviews of products for which they were hired.
Positive reviews aren’t any better. I used to work with a guy (from another country) who told me he and lots of friends worked for an Amazon review business where they just wrote positive reviews of products for which they were hired.
Some customers do use the threat of leaving a bad review to coerce, threaten or blackmail a company into giving them preferential treatment, but these are usually pretty obvious.
Some bad reviews are just petty and ridiculous and you actually side with the business.
Customers also file over the top good reviews in an effort to try to curry favor with a company or to get preferential treatment.
Some companies file fake good reviews under different names to try to boost their score, but again, these are usually obvious.
Fake reviews typically offer effusive praise that is beyond normal language.
You have to read the reviews with a discerning eye and accept that any can be fake.
This is why you have to look at all sources of information to try to get a general pattern and not just look at any one source or overweight any particular item.
Due diligence means checking as many sources as possible including any reviews you can find and reading the reviews to see if there are patterns that indicate something.
Customers should verify things like a business license and a contractor’s license.
Check their corporate registration with the state to see if it is in good standing.
Check for insurance and bond.
Check for court cases whether the company is a plaintiff or defendant.
Check to see how long a company has been in business including when they registered their website for web based sales.
Look up the address on Google street view to see if they have an actual office with a sign, especially if they are a large business that does contracting.
In my opinion, I would not give any weight to belonging or not belonging to the BBB or Angie’s List etc.
Some bad reviews are just petty and ridiculous and you actually side with the business.
Customers also file over the top good reviews in an effort to try to curry favor with a company or to get preferential treatment.
Some companies file fake good reviews under different names to try to boost their score, but again, these are usually obvious.
Fake reviews typically offer effusive praise that is beyond normal language.
You have to read the reviews with a discerning eye and accept that any can be fake.
This is why you have to look at all sources of information to try to get a general pattern and not just look at any one source or overweight any particular item.
Due diligence means checking as many sources as possible including any reviews you can find and reading the reviews to see if there are patterns that indicate something.
Customers should verify things like a business license and a contractor’s license.
Check their corporate registration with the state to see if it is in good standing.
Check for insurance and bond.
Check for court cases whether the company is a plaintiff or defendant.
Check to see how long a company has been in business including when they registered their website for web based sales.
Look up the address on Google street view to see if they have an actual office with a sign, especially if they are a large business that does contracting.
In my opinion, I would not give any weight to belonging or not belonging to the BBB or Angie’s List etc.
It does take some time and effort to do this level of investigation, but with a big project like a pool where you’re paying $50,000.00 to $100,000.00, it’s definitely worthwhile to try to avoid problems as much as possible.
It’s amazing how many people still signed contracts with Catalina and paid tens of thousands in down payments even after there were enough bad reviews to make it obvious that they were not trustworthy.
It’s amazing how many people still signed contracts with Catalina and paid tens of thousands in down payments even after there were enough bad reviews to make it obvious that they were not trustworthy.
Maybe some of these points could be added to the following wiki or to a sticky thread in the Under Construction forum?
Construction Best Practices - Further Reading
www.troublefreepool.com
An important thing to evaluate on a proposal is the level of detail and specificity, or lack thereof.
A good proposal should be very specific about all aspects of the job including exactly what equipment will be installed, quality metrics, timeframes with guarantees etc.
The exact design, engineering and architecture should be well thought out and described including 3 dimensional drawings from multiple angles.
Things like wall and floor thickness, concrete psi, rebar size and spacing should be specified.
Elevations should be described exactly.
Quality metrics like “level” should be specified.
Ideally, the contractor should also provide statistics on how well they meet things like timeframes.
The contract should be specific about when a breach occurs sufficient for the customer to cancel and what remedies are available in the event of a breach.
For example, the contract should specify exactly when the project will be completed and if it is not completed by that time, the customer can cancel and get all of their money back plus penalties for being late.
The contract should specify what, if any, circumstances are acceptable reasons for a delay.
A good proposal should be very specific about all aspects of the job including exactly what equipment will be installed, quality metrics, timeframes with guarantees etc.
The exact design, engineering and architecture should be well thought out and described including 3 dimensional drawings from multiple angles.
Things like wall and floor thickness, concrete psi, rebar size and spacing should be specified.
Elevations should be described exactly.
Quality metrics like “level” should be specified.
Ideally, the contractor should also provide statistics on how well they meet things like timeframes.
The contract should be specific about when a breach occurs sufficient for the customer to cancel and what remedies are available in the event of a breach.
For example, the contract should specify exactly when the project will be completed and if it is not completed by that time, the customer can cancel and get all of their money back plus penalties for being late.
The contract should specify what, if any, circumstances are acceptable reasons for a delay.
- Nov 12, 2017
- 12,647
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
Don't forget about the
Unicorn Clause, which has as much chance of getting into most construction contracts as just about everything else you listed! The problem is:Matt nailed it. Kids don't dream about becoming tradesmen or contractors. The pool from which contractors are drawn is the uneducated labor force doing construction grunt work that eventually get tired of having a contractor for a boss. So they decide to become their own boss. Their entire construction management education consists of learning what is the proper paint with which to slap their name on the side of their truck door. That's it. Once done, they're in business! They'll only be able to apply whatever business acumen rubbed off on them when they were working for someone else, who probably had the same amount of construction management savvy when he got started!
At least in my experience, you're lucky to get any sort of contract at all. Most contractors will do a proposal, of sorts, and then have you sign it, and then consider that the contract. Some will provide a separate contract, but it usually consists of clauses designed only to protect the contractor! They probably got it from some cheap lawyer, or bought it off a website. Compounding the problem is the average consumer's lack of knowledge about what a contract is supposed to include. Like the building of their pool, they trust the "professional" to provide the necessary paperwork. But as Matt points out, that level of construction management is just never learned by the average contractor. Even here, in CA, where one cannot obtain a contractor's license without first passing a test, most of which consists of how to write a contract, contractors just won't use that learnin' once they start booking jobs. It's crazy.
So I don't mean to slight your list, James, at all. It's a great list. I love Guinness' idea of posting it where it can be found. Because only through educating potential contractor shoppers can this awful aspect of the construction industry take a turn for the better.
People should at least ask and see how a company responds.Don't forget about the
If a customer is just “Window Shopping” and not serious, I understand that a contractor would not want to spend the time to do a detailed proposal.
However, if a customer shows serious interest, then a contractor should be ready, willing and able to provide these details.
These details will need to be decided at some point anyway, so why not before anything is started?
If a company does this type of thing as a business, then they already know, or should know, what they usually do.
This also protects the company because you avoid problems where the customer says that they expected XYZ and they did not get XYZ even though you never promised XYZ.
Vagueness goes both ways.
Customers often take advantage of vague contracts to demand extras by saying that they thought these things were included as standard.