Liquidator vs Peristaltic Chlorine pump

Sabot

LifeTime Supporter
Aug 2, 2007
343
Austin, TX
#21
With a pump...won't you need some type of controller or can the volume of chemical be controlled by a ball valve similar to the Liquidator?

I have been researching how to feed acid down stream pass the filter & solar.
 

Aquaman95

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2008
249
#22
Most pumps have a feed rate control either mechanical, potentiometer, or timer based. On some peristaltic pumps different diameter feed tubes can also be used to adjust output or restrict maximum output.
 

Sabot

LifeTime Supporter
Aug 2, 2007
343
Austin, TX
#23
I am researching pros/cons of using a Venturi Injector for my Liquidator and PH Adjuster downstream of the filter/solar. This way, when I automate I can run the chase upstream for the probes. The added bonus, the chemicals stay down stream from the equipment. Thoughts on usings a Venturi Injector on systems that require suction?

Here are some links:
http://www.mazzei.net/applications/chem.htm
http://www.mazzei.net/products/typ_install.htm
http://www.made-in-china.com/image/2f0j ... D-D10-.jpg
 

Aquaman95

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2008
249
#24
Make sure you have a good restrictor on the suction port (adjustment valve) or reducers to make sure it can't suck in the whole bleach container in a few seconds flat.

The biggest weak spot is that air+bleach = salt clogs and small orifices are the first places to clog. To restrict it down enough you will have small orifices...just keep them clean periodically and it should be fine.

I have that same Mazzei injector installed on my lawn sprinkler system. I use it to introduce liquid fertilizer into the sprinklers.

It's been on there for years and works great. They really suck! :lol:
 

mas985

TFP Expert
LifeTime Supporter
May 3, 2007
12,174
Pleasanton, CA
#25
Sabot said:
I am researching pros/cons of using a Venturi Injector for my Liquidator and PH Adjuster downstream of the filter/solar. This way, when I automate I can run the chase upstream for the probes. The added bonus, the chemicals stay down stream from the equipment. Thoughts on usings a Venturi Injector on systems that require suction?

Here are some links:
http://www.mazzei.net/applications/chem.htm
http://www.mazzei.net/products/typ_install.htm
http://www.made-in-china.com/image/2f0j ... D-D10-.jpg
Venturi injectors are very tricky to get to work in pool plumbing. The operating pressures between input and output are very limited so make sure you look at the tables for each version and check the input and output PSI requirements. The delta PSI between the input and output determines the flow rate from the tank and sometimes you don't know what those pressures will be until you cut into the pipe.
 

JasonLion

TFP Expert
Platinum Supporter
LifeTime Supporter
May 7, 2007
37,879
Silver Spring, MD
#27
Yes, a peristaltic pump works very well for an acid feed. I am using a Stenner tank and pump system, that comes as a component of the Auto Pilot Total Control system, to feed muriatic acid into my pool. They make both fixed rate and adjustable rate pumps. Fixed rate is better if you have some kind of external control system, while a variable rate pump can be used as it's own control system. I assume that most of the other brands would also work.
 

Aquaman95

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2008
249
#28
JasonLion said:
Yes, a peristaltic pump works very well for an acid feed. I am using a Stenner tank and pump system, that comes as a component of the Auto Pilot Total Control system, to feed muriatic acid into my pool. They make both fixed rate and adjustable rate pumps. Fixed rate is better if you have some kind of external control system, while a variable rate pump can be used as it's own control system. I assume that most of the other brands would also work.
Yes, Stenners work well for acid. While they are available with Mechanical Feed Rate Control, you still want to size the feed tube according to your need. Because of the design if you use a big feed tube/motor and then use the Feed Rate Control to turn it all the way down it will wear out the Feed Rate control very quickly.

For the money (especially as cheap as some are on ebay) the Stenner is a great choice.
 

Sabot

LifeTime Supporter
Aug 2, 2007
343
Austin, TX
#29
Jason,
Do you have pictures of your acid system? If you have a schematic with a part list, that would be welcome as well. I would like to see how you did it. Do you tap directly from the acid bottle or do you pour it into a tank which is sealed? Looking around the net, the pumps are pricey (variables about $450 or so new). I am keeping my eye on this for it's interesting. I am looking forward to testing the Hasa PH Adjuster in the mean time while I save up for the injector system. ;)

Thanks,
Mike
 

JasonLion

TFP Expert
Platinum Supporter
LifeTime Supporter
May 7, 2007
37,879
Silver Spring, MD
#30
I have a Stenner 15 gallon UV gray tank system with a fixed low rate pump head. Acid is stored in a closed tank. After the pump it goes through a check valve and then into the return pipe through a clamp on injector. The tank/pump system cost about $450 with a fixed rate pump and is rock solid reliable. I have a separate control system with a PH sensor, not included in the $450, that decides when to inject acid.
 

Sabot

LifeTime Supporter
Aug 2, 2007
343
Austin, TX
#31
I saw that setup, sweet. Didn't know if it was air tight to keep the fumes inside. How much acid to you fill the tank with and how strong are the fumes when you open the tank to refill?

What control system and probes do you use?

Sorry for the questions! :)
 

JasonLion

TFP Expert
Platinum Supporter
LifeTime Supporter
May 7, 2007
37,879
Silver Spring, MD
#32
It isn't quite air tight, if it was you couldn't pump acid out of it without creating a vacuum inside. But it does a great job of keeping the fumes inside.

I don't use straight acid, I put in 10 1/2 gallons of water and 4 gallons of acid, which also helps with the fumes.

The controller is an AutoPilot Total Control system, which uses CAT sensor probes.
 

Sabot

LifeTime Supporter
Aug 2, 2007
343
Austin, TX
#33
That is a nice setup but has a nice price to it. Looks like most of the price ($2,000 and up) may be in the controller? Did the CAT probes come with the Autopilot system or is that an aftermarket purchase? Any issue connecting the probes to the controller? I need to find a controller.

Silly question... 1) What does ORP mean?

As always, thanks for your time and your information!
Mike
 

Aquaman95

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2008
249
#34
Oxidation-Reduction Potential, it's more of a qualitative analysis of the oxidizing potential of the water vs. PPM which is a quantitative measurement of how much chlorine is in the water, not necessarily whether is is effective. That's where the CYA/FC/pH charts come in with PPM.

CAT probes come with the Autopilot.

ORP probes are very universal despite what the manufacturers my lead you to believe. As long as they have the correct connector virtually any one will work.

Here's a link to an article explaining ORP basics:

http://www.tricitypoolservice.com/tc-orp.html
 

randytsuch

LifeTime Supporter
Mar 29, 2008
256
Los Angeles, Ca
#35
OK, so this weekend I tried Mark's sugggestion, to make a homemade chlorine feeder.

It did suck in water, but at too high a rate. I had a bunch of 1/2 gal/hr drippers, nine to be exact, but it still sucked pretty hard. And, because my pool is covered, I don't need much chlorine.

But, the bigger problem was I had a few air leaks in my dripper system. This let air into the pump, and caused the pump to lose prime. The pump had to start up dry. A couple times, it would not even start at all. I had to shut it off, and open up the leave trap. For some reason, that made it work. It took me a little while, and some research here to figure out what was going on, and what was causing it.

I did hot glue things together, to keep the drippers from leaking, but I missed at least one hole.

So, for now, I removed the drippers, and the pump works fine. I will try playing with it some more, when I get some time. I am only out $10 for the drippers, an on off valve and an adaptor, so it does not pan out I won't cry :cry: over it.

Randy
 

mas985

TFP Expert
LifeTime Supporter
May 3, 2007
12,174
Pleasanton, CA
#36
randytsuch said:
OK, so this weekend I tried Mark's sugggestion, to make a homemade chlorine feeder.

It did suck in water, but at too high a rate. I had a bunch of 1/2 gal/hr drippers, nine to be exact, but it still sucked pretty hard. And, because my pool is covered, I don't need much chlorine.

But, the bigger problem was I had a few air leaks in my dripper system. This let air into the pump, and caused the pump to lose prime. The pump had to start up dry. A couple times, it would not even start at all. I had to shut it off, and open up the leave trap. For some reason, that made it work. It took me a little while, and some research here to figure out what was going on, and what was causing it.

I did hot glue things together, to keep the drippers from leaking, but I missed at least one hole.

So, for now, I removed the drippers, and the pump works fine. I will try playing with it some more, when I get some time. I am only out $10 for the drippers, an on off valve and an adaptor, so it does not pan out I won't cry :cry: over it.

Randy
Air leaks can be a big problem but can usually be fixed by hot gluing the barbed end of the drip buttons and also by using plumber's grease on the other end. This should fix all of the leaks.

There are a couple of reasons why your flow rate may be too high. Pump run time and/or high suction at the pump. So how long are you running your pump per day and what size is your pump and plumbing?
 

randytsuch

LifeTime Supporter
Mar 29, 2008
256
Los Angeles, Ca
#37
mas985 said:
Air leaks can be a big problem but can usually be fixed by hot gluing the barbed end of the drip buttons and also by using plumber's grease on the other end. This should fix all of the leaks.

There are a couple of reasons why your flow rate may be too high. Pump run time and/or high suction at the pump. So how long are you running your pump per day and what size is your pump and plumbing?
I actually hot glued both ends of the drip buttons, since I was not planning to remove any, flow rate is too high as it is. But, I missed at least one spot, that I need to glue again.
Did not have anytime this weekend to play with it, had to clean out my DE filter yesterday, maybe this week.

Pump is 1.5 hp, with a 1.5 service factor (2.25 bph), running about 10 hours per day. Plumbing is mostly 2 inch, except for 1.5 around the filter. Pressure at the filter is 15 (now that its clean), I want to get a vacuum gauge and measure at the pump, but have not got around to it yet.

Randy
 

mas985

TFP Expert
LifeTime Supporter
May 3, 2007
12,174
Pleasanton, CA
#38
With a 1.5 HP pump and 2" plumbing, you are probably pretty close to 90 GPM. For 10 hour run time, that is a little over 2.5 turnovers per day. Is there a reason to run the pump that long?

Also, how much chlorine do you need to put in per day and what did you measure the draw rate to be?

Assuming 1 ppm per day, that is about 43 oz/day or 4.3 oz/hr of 6% bleach. I get about 10 oz/hr to 15 oz/hr of draw rate (depending on valve settings) but I dilute the acid by 6:1 so my effect acid draw is about 1.7 oz/hr to 2.5 oz/hr. If the draw rate is too high, you may just need to dilute the chlorine more. You just don't want the draw rate to empty the tank too soon. Refilling once per week may not be so bad, certainly better than adding chlorine once a day. How big of tank are you using?
 

randytsuch

LifeTime Supporter
Mar 29, 2008
256
Los Angeles, Ca
#39
mas985 said:
With a 1.5 HP pump and 2" plumbing, you are probably pretty close to 90 GPM. For 10 hour run time, that is a little over 2.5 turnovers per day. Is there a reason to run the pump that long?
Because I don't know any better :oops:
I don't think I am getting 90 gpm, sounds high, but I really don't have any idea what I am getting. I know that I do need to make some "extra" holes in my vacuum hose, to vacuum the pool, or the suction is too high, and I can't even move the vacuum head. All the water goes through my skimmer right now, I need to buy a part for my skimmer, to have some water come through the drain, and some from the skimmer.

mas985 said:
Also, how much chlorine do you need to put in per day and what did you measure the draw rate to be?
Usage is low right now, until the pool gets warmer. Maybe a gallon a week or so, because it is covered expect for weekends.
I did not actually measure the draw, I stuck the tube in the bucket, and watched the water drain, at a reasonable rate. I could tell by looking that it was way too fast.

mas985 said:
Assuming 1 ppm per day, that is about 43 oz/day or 4.3 oz/hr of 6% bleach. I get about 10 oz/hr to 15 oz/hr of draw rate (depending on valve settings) but I dilute the acid by 6:1 so my effect acid draw is about 1.7 oz/hr to 2.5 oz/hr. If the draw rate is too high, you may just need to dilute the chlorine more. You just don't want the draw rate to empty the tank too soon. Refilling once per week may not be so bad, certainly better than adding chlorine once a day. How big of tank are you using?
Tank is a 50 lb bucket for granular chlorine. Have not measured the volume, maybe 10 gal?

Randy
 

mas985

TFP Expert
LifeTime Supporter
May 3, 2007
12,174
Pleasanton, CA
#40
It sounds like you have very high suction which could be part of the problem. So the only solution may be to use more buttons if possible and if you want to pursue this.

If you have a 10 gallon bucket and use 1 gallon of bleach per week plus reduce your run time to 8 hours, they the draw rate required would be 23 oz/hr which is pretty high so I still think you should be able to do this even with the high vacuum you are experiencing.

I don't know how high your vacuum is but if I assume 20" mg (-10 PSI) which is very high, then 9 buttons should be more than enough.

If can time the drain of the bucket, I might be able to get a better idea of what is going on. It could be the drip button style you are using are not appropriate for this application. Something I had not considered.