Let the games begin...copper-silver ionization

[Mermaid Mama]

Swimming Pools Contain Dangerous Chlorine Disinfection Byproducts – Here’s How to Make Them Safer (scitechdaily.com)

Not much meat. And I doubt it works in real life. So much junk on the market...

Science! Not voodoo. Dated 2022.

“Copper silver ionization water treatment is an EPA-approved method for disinfection and is most commonly used to control Legionella bacteria in building water systems. The water treatment uses a process where very small amounts of copper and silver are added into the water to eliminate bacteria and viruses in the water. “

https://www.nyc.gov/assets/doh/downloads/pdf/environmental/copper-silver-ionization.pdf

 

[Mermaid Mama]

Abstract: “Copper and silver ionization is a well-recognized disinfection method to control Legionella species in water distribution systems in hospitals. These systems may also serve as a potential indoor reservoir for fungi. The prevalence of fungi was significantly lower in ionized than in nonionized water samples from health care facilities.”

Impact of Copper and Silver Ionization on Fungal Colonization of the Water Supply in Health Care Centers: Implications for Immunocompromised Patients

 

[Mermaid Mama]

03/2023

“Silver ionization was used in the 1960s by NASA for the sanitation of water on spacecraft. “

“Later, in 1994, copper-silver ionization was the first reported effective treatment for controlling Legionella in a hospital. Today, copper-silver ionization is used to prevent waterborne pathogens in a variety of buildings with complex water systems”

https://www.miamiherald.com/press-releases/article273683915.html

 

[red-beard]

1994 is new research? I'll stick with TFP methods.

 

[Mermaid Mama]

11/2019
From American Society Microbiology:
“A new study has found that copper hospital beds in the Intensive Care Unit (ICU) harbored an average of 95 percent fewer bacteria than conventional hospital beds, and maintained these low-risk levels throughout patients’ stay in hospital.”

Copper Hospital Beds Kill Bacteria, Save Lives

A new study has found that copper hospital beds in the Intensive Care Unit (ICU) harbored an average of 95% fewer bacteria than conventional hospital beds, and maintained these low-risk levels throughout patients’ stay in hospital.

asm.org

 

[Mermaid Mama]

1994 is new research? I'll stick with TFP methods.

Yes, I have too for years but the science is there so I am going to give it a whirl.

And you are wrong on the date. The article is dated March 2023 but says it was was first established as effective in 1994. So it’s not new for hospitals.

What you don’t like science now? It doesn’t hurt to be open minded... it’s actually a sign of intelligence.

 

[red-beard]

Insults are not. Have fun with your reindeer games.

 

[Mermaid Mama]

1998 PubMed

“One copper-silver ionization system was sequentially installed onto the hot-water recirculation lines of two hospital buildings colonized with Legionella pneumophila, serogroup 1. A third building with the same water supply and also colonized with Legionella served as a control. Four weeks after activation of the system, distal site positivity for Legionella in the first test building dropped to zero. After operating for 16 weeks, the system was disconnected and installed onto the second test building. Twelve weeks of disinfection reduced the distal site positivity for Legionella in the second test building to zero. Legionella recolonization did not occur in the first test building for 6-12 weeks and in the second test building for 8-12 weeks after inactivation of the system. The control building remained Legionella-positive throughout the experimental period. A significantly higher copper concentration was found in the biofilm taken from a sampling device than in that from water. This is likely to be the reason that the copper-silver ionization system had the residual effect of preventing early recolonization. Our study raises the possibility that one copper-silver unit could be rotated among several buildings to maintain a Legionella-free environment. Such an approach may be cost-effective for buildings housing individuals at low risk for contracting legionnaires' disease.”

Intermittent use of copper-silver ionization for Legionella control in water distribution systems: a potential option in buildings housing individuals at low risk of infection - PubMed

One copper-silver ionization system was sequentially installed onto the hot-water recirculation lines of two hospital buildings colonized with Legionella pneumophila, serogroup 1. A third building with the same water supply and also colonized with Legionella served as a control. Four weeks after...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Mermaid Mama]

Insults are not. Have fun with your reindeer games.

Lol your post is a big swipe at alternative theories and it sounds like you don’t know a lot about the subject.

I was looking forward to a civil debate about what I have learned. Yes, TFPs method works but if there are non-toxic ways keeping water sanitary on the horizon that should be something exciting to talk about.

Research suggests that Copper is more effective. MRCA is out of control in hospitals, I lost an 8 year old family member because of it.

Chlorine exposure causes higher respiratory infection rates. That’s a fact but it was the most effective but there might be something better.

 

[JJ_Tex]

Odd resurrection of a post…

There are lots of things that can disinfect water. A couple of buddies just got back from a hiking trip and used iodine to sanitize their drinking water when they couldn’t boil it. The iodine may have made the water safe to drink, but no way I would want to put it in my pool.

The same goes for copper and silver. Just do a quick search on here for people with copper and silver stains in their pool. No thank you.

Another key point is you cannot easily test for copper and silver, so how would you know how much you have in the water? Just pray and hope you have a metal level that falls somewhere between algae and staining your pool surface? That is certainly not the TFP way.

Lastly, you are not doing an apples to apples comparison. A drinking water storage tank is going to be a closed system and sanitation can be slower as you are not constantly adding contaminants. Ask NASA or the hospital if little Timmy can have his birthday party in their drinking water system, then check and see how sanitary the water is afterward.

 

[newdude]

I have too for years but the science is there so I am going to give it a whirl

Please consider that the levels used for treating drinking water are far more than what causes staining in pools.

In holding tanks that sit sealed extendedly, a non contact killer sanitation method is Ok because no new organics/bacteria were added in the time it took for the metals to sanitize. (Possibly days) When swimming or hot tubbing the person to person transmissions, or things blowing in the open pool will take far too long to be sanitized, if at the much higher drinking water levels muchless the pool levels, so you need the contact killer (chlorine). Cyrptosodium is one of the few things that chlorine does poorly with but its incredibly rare and effectively not an issue.


Yes you are right. It *can* be a viable method in the proper situations. It should have never been applied to pool care. As you are sanitizing a pool/spa with bather load and not a sealed stainless vessel, metals are not a government approved primary sanitation method. If you are properly sanitizing with an approved contact killer, there is simply no need for secondary sanitation methods. If you use a secondary method as your primary method, bad things will happen.

 

[duraleigh]

Mermaid Momma,

TFP exists not to discuss alternative processes that MIGHT work but rather to teach one that DOES.

TFP is not interested in taking up bandwidth arguing alternate methods. We ARE interested in discussing and refining our methods to make them more effective for the pool owner.

 

[AUSpool]

Copper and silver will stain pool surfaces. Copper can prevent algal growth but does little for bacterial growth. Silver can limit bacterial growth but both silver and copper combined do not match the kill rate of chlorine. While silver is the alternative’s solution to bacterial and viral control silver levels are not actually tested and maintained. Silver and copper do not provide any oxidation. Am I missing something?

 

[JamesW]

Yes, I have too for years but the science is there so I am going to give it a whirl.

Science relies on a clearly stated hypothesis and a well thought out test procedure that can prove or disprove the hypothesis.

Can you explain your hypothesis as well as the test procedure and what different test results would mean?

Will you have multiple tests pools or spas that can be tested to rule out chance?

Will you have a control group?

Are you able to do proper statistical analysis?

Tests have to have objective results that can be replicated like sampling for bacteria, mold, fungus, algae etc. to see if the processes result in more, less or the same types of counts.

If you cannot do all of these things, then it is just an anecdote, which isn't really science.

Anecdotes typically have subjective feelings that are usually considered to be unreliable.

People often confuse correlation with causation.

People often include vague feelings or subjective opinions without any verifiable measurements.

You should also be able to provide the logic behind the hypothesis that explains why you think that the hypothesis is correct.

You should be able to provide a reference for any supporting documentation and explain why it is relevant to your situation.

You should be able to provide all formulas, equations, calculations, algorithms etc. that you think apply.

 

[Donldson]

Yes, TFPs method works but if there are non-toxic ways keeping water sanitary

Sanitizing water means killing the microbes that infest water. Anything that can kill microbes can be toxic to humans. Anything too slow at killing microbes puts humans at even greater risk. You claim to be concerned with diseases, yet are attempting to kill them in the slowest possible ways.

You are not entitled to a "civil debate" on any subject you put forth, certainly not after treating everyone disproving your "FACTS" with incivility. You are not doing science, you are pushing unsanitary water treatment with scare tactics. You invoke one use for a substance to "prove" it will work in any use you give it and then you harass anyone who isn't buying in to it. You are not interested in a debate, you are interested in convincing others that you are right despite all evidence to the contrary.

TFP methods work and there is nothing particularly exciting on the horizon. Copper has been used to treat water millennia before the advent of Germ Theory. Its use is far older than the use of chlorine. But it is not as fast or effective as chlorine, which is why it isn't used. Ever get cholera from your municipal drinking supply? Probably not, but there was a time where that was just a part of living. Thankfully chlorination of drinking water has virtually eliminated such a problem. Sorry to say some people are poor students of history.

That same fecal matter that spreads cholera is present in every pool and spa that has had a human enter it. Any spa that can have mold growing in it certainly isn't killing the stuff swimming on fecal matter very quickly, if at all.

 

[SoDel]

Lol your post is a big swipe at alternative theories and it sounds like you don’t know a lot about the subject.

I was looking forward to a civil debate about what I have learned. Yes, TFPs method works but if there are non-toxic ways keeping water sanitary on the horizon that should be something exciting to talk about.

Research suggests that Copper is more effective. MRCA is out of control in hospitals, I lost an 8 year old family member because of it.

Chlorine exposure causes higher respiratory infection rates. That’s a fact but it was the most effective but there might be something better.

I understand your motivation but what strikes me is you drink chlorinated water and you shower in chlorinated water. Why is chlorinated water suddenly a problem to swim in? The poison is in the dose — same for copper. Low levels of either won’t harm you. But safe levels of chlorine are effective to kill pathogens in water. I can’t find much info on how much copper sulfate is needed in water to effectively sanitize — would be interesting to see a comparison with chlorine.

Copper is not non-toxic. It is possible that the levels of copper needed to effectively sanitize water would be more dangerous to humans than the present use of chlorine.

Copper Toxicity - StatPearls - NCBI Bookshelf

 

[oldprophet]

Exactly. If you are allowing people to pee in your pool, you should expect some issues. Also note the article said that there was a huge difference between indoor and outdoor pools and the byproducts sticking around.

Another low information/bad information new feed subject.

That article is pure bologna!

 

[JamesW]

Paul Karason - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argyria

Man who turned blue after taking silver for skin condition dies

A man who turned blue after taking silver for a skin condition has died. Paul Karason, 62, suffered a heart attack before contracting pneumonia and having a severe stroke at a hospital in Washington state on Monday.

www.nydailynews.com

 

[red-beard]

That same fecal matter that spreads cholera is present in every pool and spa that has had a human enter it. Any spa that can have mold growing in it certainly isn't killing the stuff swimming on fecal matter very quickly, if at all

Not in MY POOL! Everyone is required to clean their butts before entry. MANDATORY checks....