Leak or Evaporation?

[lasvegas1976]

I live in Las Vegas, which is obviously hot. It's been in the mid-high 80s this week.

Long story short, I noticed my water meter was having a very, very slow spin at all hours of the day. I finally tracked it down to the pool's auto-fill (Korky auto-fill).

It was stuck I gather and seeping out a dribble even when the pool was full and also not filling the pool.

A new auto-fill was installed yesterday.

Maybe it needs to be raised to a different level, but I haven't see it in action yet (I think pool guy set it lower than the last one).

I've noticed since yesterday the pool water has been getting lower. Since 8am this morning (now it's 520 PST) - I lost another .25 of an inch.

I called pool guy and he thinks it's normal water loss for Las Vegas, even in 9 hours, since my pool is out in the open and right in full view of the sun.

Also, he's not sure what the water level is set at on the auto-fill.

Water meter is not moving at all when nobody is around, which he believes gives more evidence that there isn't a leak or else it would always be moving as auto-fill would fill up the pool.

At the same time, he said if the water level keeps dropping and dropping to the point where the skimmer is not able to work correctly, then he said there is either a leak or the new auto-fill is not filling water back up.

He's coming in a few days to check it out.

Any experience with similar scenarios?

 

[1poolman1]

I live in Las Vegas, which is obviously hot. It's been in the mid-high 80s this week.

Long story short, I noticed my water meter was having a very, very slow spin at all hours of the day. I finally tracked it down to the pool's auto-fill (Korky auto-fill).

It was stuck I gather and seeping out a dribble even when the pool was full and also not filling the pool.

A new auto-fill was installed yesterday.

Maybe it needs to be raised to a different level, but I haven't see it in action yet (I think pool guy set it lower than the last one).

I've noticed since yesterday the pool water has been getting lower. Since 8am this morning (now it's 520 PST) - I lost another .25 of an inch.

I called pool guy and he thinks it's normal water loss for Las Vegas, even in 9 hours, since my pool is out in the open and right in full view of the sun.

Also, he's not sure what the water level is set at on the auto-fill.

Water meter is not moving at all when nobody is around, which he believes gives more evidence that there isn't a leak or else it would always be moving as auto-fill would fill up the pool.

At the same time, he said if the water level keeps dropping and dropping to the point where the skimmer is not able to work correctly, then he said there is either a leak or the new auto-fill is not filling water back up.

He's coming in a few days to check it out.

Any experience with similar scenarios?

Put a 5 gallon bucket on the second step with water in it about the same height as the pool water around it. Mark the level in and out to be sure. Does it lose the same amount of water? Yes? Evaporation. Less? Pool leak.

 

[lasvegas1976]

I know the bucket test well, but that won't work for me. The location where the steps are, it actually gets shade, while the remainder of the pool gets the sun full blast. That type of test could be deceiving.

 

[wireform]

The evaporation has very little to do with the sun and shade you speak of, If it'll evaporate in the pool it will in the bucket too. If the difference is grater in the pool then you have a leak.

 

[lasvegas1976]

Earlier today, my deck was so hot (from the Vegas sun) that I couldn't place my hands on them for too long.

Arguably, from what my pool guy says, if there was a leak taking down the water line then the auto-fill would be running often to keep up.

I keep going to the water meter when nothing else is running and it's always still. I've been checking on the auto-fill as well, it's never running when I check.

The one prior leak I had with the pool, my water meter was turning ( very slowly) all day and night. After having a leak specialist come in, he isolated the leak to the pool and used listening equipment to determine there was a crack in the pipe that connects to the auto-fill. They had to jackhammer down from the deck - and sure enough there was a decent crack and water was spraying once uncovered. I tried the bucket test in this instance and it was too close to call, because despite the leak in the pipe the actual auto-fill was still working to an extent.

This is why I may give it a few days, because if it stops at a certain point and doesn't go any lower (I'm taking photos every day of the water line against the tile), then the auto-fill is adjusted to that level and needs adjusting to a higher point. If it continues to decline lower and lower, it may be time to get the leak specialist back to determine if the plumbing has an issue.

 

[wireform]

You can valve off the auto fill to eliminate any fresh makeup water.

 

[lasvegas1976]

You can valve off the auto fill to eliminate any fresh makeup water.

That might be an option.

Already in contract to have pool redone in late January. Entire pool being replastered with quartz, brand new light, new tile, new skimmer, deck being redone. Pool created in 1990 (way before I owned the place) and it's falling apart. The plaster looks bad, some of the decorative tiles have come off over the years, deck looks really bad since the past owners kept painting it ( a no-no with Vegas weather)... past owners painting the pool (twice) didn't help either as paint has slowly been coming off the pool since we've lived here (since 2016).

 

[lasvegas1976]

I lost a quarter of an inch since last night (around 11 hours from 9:30 to 8:30).

Again, my pool guy says its normal evaporation loss for Las Vegas.

I finally hear the autofill working, but it sounds like it's hissing (or dribbling) from below the top. When it was first installed on Tuesday (although pool guy had it adjusted in a higher position) it was shooting water from a black opening near the top.

 

[Toxophilite]

I lost a quarter of an inch since last night (around 11 hours from 9:30 to 8:30).

Again, my pool guy says its normal evaporation loss for Las Vegas.

I finally hear the autofill working, but it sounds like it's hissing (or dribbling) from below the top. When it was first installed on Tuesday (although pool guy had it adjusted in a higher position) it was shooting water from a black opening near the top.

When it is filling from a lower water level, it will cycle faster and shoot water out. Fill can, can drains, fill again. As it gets close to full, it just dribbles water constantly as the float is only partially closing off till pool finally tops off enough to fully shut float valve. On really high evaporation days, mine might stay in dribble mode all day long.

 

[lasvegas1976]

My last Korky autofill went bad (or at least the float). It was in dribble mode 24/7 - even after I overfilled the pool just to see if it would stop the autofill, it kept making a hissing noise 24/7.

When we installed the new one, the hissing noise stopped. Today is the first day I actually hear it hissing/dribbling - but the dribbling I think is coming from below and not the black opening at the top (if that makes sense). The autofill I had prior to the Korky would always shoot from the top opening (maybe a fluidmaster?).

 

[Toxophilite]

My last Korky autofill went bad (or at least the float). It was in dribble mode 24/7 - even after I overfilled the pool just to see if it would stop the autofill, it kept making a hissing noise 24/7.

When we installed the new one, the hissing noise stopped. Today is the first day I actually hear it hissing/dribbling - but the dribbling I think is coming from below and not the black opening at the top (if that makes sense). The autofill I had prior to the Korky would always shoot from the top opening (maybe a fluidmaster?).

Good thing Korkys can be had for $7 on amazon, as they are the worst of them. On my second one and pool not year old yet. They have limited adjustment levels on stem height adjustment and no float adjustment. The other vertical valve assembly, Fluidmaster, is great, but it won't fit my can due to lid height.

The reason they can leak at the bottom is because it's just 3/4" straight pipe. It does not seal water pressure good with just bottoming out in thread bore. Get seepage there. I fixed that with another 3/4" plastic thumb nut and the rubber washer put below nut and then after seated in thread bore, I screw that nut and washer down to seal on top of the boss of bore.

 

[lasvegas1976]

So is that normal to have hissing, water coming out from somewhere besides that opening at the top? I wasn't sure if it comes out of the float area or somewhere else.

 

[Toxophilite]

So is that normal to have hissing, water coming out from somewhere besides that opening at the top? I wasn't sure if it comes out of the float area or somewhere else.

Yes, my first Korky had no top tube nipple and only filled below float, plus what seeped around valve on top. The second one had the nipple on top that would normally be run with spaghetti tube to toilet downspout for bowl, and I like it better because I can see exactly when off and on by looking at that nipple where tube would go. There's configurations of these with bowl fill and without, but I think they all actually fill from below float and yes, when they are near topping off they just hiss water from any opening connected to float valve.

 

[lasvegas1976]

I stuck my hand in and the water shifted in the canister, going up with the weight of my hand then back down when I took my hand out. For some reason, a quick spurt came out from the top nipple and now water is spurting out continuously. Maybe it was stick and I kicked it in to gear? Like you said, these things are cheap.

 

[Toxophilite]

You have to take into account how the float and can works. The can fills faster than it can gravity drain to pool under any amount of water volume coming in. So, when you stick your hand in, the volume of your hand displaces water to pool. When you took it out, the can is now down and the float fully opens till the can equalizes with pool.

In a nutshell, if you had and inch or more of pool to fill, the float will cycle between that inch. Fully opening, then closing, then fully opening, then closing..... this would repeat until the pool and can level rises, then, the float can only partially open. Just a little flow, then none, just a little flow, then none. This might repeat until water is just barely flowing but constantly, keeping up with gravity flow to pool. After the pool and can volume are near equal, the float can barely move. Then, it's just a constant seep, hiss, or whatever till there's enough water level to force float completely closed.

 

[lasvegas1976]

I agree with what you're saying and I've seen this happen before but usually it's just a few pumps of a minor stream. In this instance, it's still flowing out and it's been at least 50 minutes later. The flow coming out of the opening is not as strong right now, but still a steady stream coming out (not a dribble)

EDIT: Just did a quick check and still flowing out, it's been over an hour at this point. Still a steady stream of water. Likely some adjusting to the height may solve my problem.

 

[lasvegas1976]

The stream just finished, it was spraying for about a little over an hour. Now it's just the hissing noise, but nothing coming out of that top hole.

 

[Toxophilite]

Maybe now the pool and can's float setting are near enough equal that it's just a smidgen more to fully push float closed. Some folks still find that regulating the water pressure downward helps the float better overcome at that last little bit. I just know it eventually quits and my pool doesn't overfill, so no worry.

One last issue with that Korky I have found. The float is not a real float. It's just an inverted cup!!! If by some chance you got it waterlogged, it loses some of it's upward force to close float valve due to lack of air in it. Just a thought if you still can't seem to have it fully close off the hiss.

 

[lasvegas1976]

My worry is always a leak. It's more like PTSD, because of a leak that happened in 2017, where it ended up being a crack in the joint of a pipe that connects to the auto-fill canister. In that situation I was tipped off by water meter moving slowly 24/7 and then stopping once auto-fill was turned off. The Korky I just replaced was in there for 5+ years, so it was likely shot to heck and stuck - because the pool was losing water and it was making a hissing sound 24/7 - even when I overfilled the pool. When the new Korky went in, it was dead quiet - until today that is, but that could be because water level has finally dropped to the point where it needs to kick in..

I have a top of the line pump and filter system and it runs most of the day at a high RPM, so I know that adds to evaporation of water as it's always moving, etc. Then add in the dry climate in Vegas, combined with 86 degrees right now in mid-October, and then chilly desert nights, I lose a noticeable amount of water a day (on a normal day I think as much as a quarter of an inch). During Vegas summers, at peak highs, pool companies tell me some of their customers lose as much as 4 inches per day!

 

[lasvegas1976]

A new plot twist.

I noticed when the new auto-fill was placed in, a bunch of debris came out of the opening where water enters the pool from the auto-fill.

I had a hunch and placed a toilet plunger on that hole and began to work the hole - sure enough the debris in the attached photo came out of the hole. The auto-fill (which was hissing most of the day) immediately stopped hissing once this debris came out.

Background - back in 2017 the area around the auto-fill had to be jack-hammered and the entire canister removed - because the PVC connecting to the auto-fill, I think at the joint, cracked and began to leak. So they had to get down there to the actual pipe and fix everything, cement and match up the deck best they could.

I think when they removed everything and did the work, debris entered the tunnel pathway that sends the water from auto-fill to the pool and it's been sitting there ever since. I think it began to affect the function of the auto-fill... maybe partially blocking the opening in the canister where water enters the auto-fill pathway to enter the pool.

After this debris came out, I worked the plunger quite a few times and nothing further came out besides clear water.