IntelliFlo <> EasyTouch issue

[matj6876]

Friends

This post starts with a confession; My name's Matt. I'm an overconfident engineer and I broke my pool automation!

We've just finished a pool remodel (old plaster to new stonescapes). We're a month in and so I've just got to the point where the cleaner is back in the pool, salt is added and we're getting back to business as usual. All good!
PB set up the IntelliFlo <> EasyTouch communication and a basic 8am - 8pm schedule. It ran fine for the first month.

This is my first VS pump so, as I was in the screen-logic configuration checking the cleaner and SWCG circuits before setting the schedule, I figured I would poke around the pump config page just to see what my options are.
BAD IDEA!

I thought I had set everything back to how it was originally set but come 8am this morning... no pump!
System (SWCG etc) and "pool" circuit comes on but pump does not spin up.
Same issue on scheduled starts or manual starts.

Next confession - I've not read the manual or tried to fix this - yet. I've got as far as acknowledging I broke it, getting the pump and cleaner running manually and now I need to go out for a few hours.
I'll take a shot at fixing it when I get back tonight but thought I would post here to see if anyone has any Pentair Pointers for me before I get stuck in!

Pump: Pentair IntelliFlo i1
Automation: Pentair EasyTouch PL4

Rest of the equipment is in signature below but I don't think any of it is the issue.

Thanks in advance all!

Cheers
MattJ

 

[Jimrahbe]

Matt,

I doubt you broke anything... post the following config page from ScreenLogic..

Post the following schedule page....

Keep in mind that the "lite" version EasyTouch that you have will only hold four programs... It will allow you to add 2 billion programs, but will never tell you it is just a few too many..

Who picked the equipment you are using??

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[matj6876]

Hi Jim

Thanks for the response.

Config screen snapshots below.

As for the equipment selection; An eclectic mix of former owners and Pool Builders. For the bits I've added (SWCG & pump) I have taken the advice of pool builder de jour .... your question makes me think that may not have been smart? Open for advice/correction here too!

 

[Jimrahbe]

Matt,

I see a problem, but not sure it is "the" problem...

You have two things that control the pump speed scheduled for the exact same time.. Which on the surface does not make any sense.

"Pool" is scheduled from 8 am until 8 pm which turns the pump on at 2600 RPM.. then you have "High Speed" scheduled for 8 am until 8 pm which runs the pump at 2800 RPM.. Since the pump can't run at both 2600 and 2800 it will pick the highest RPM...

What would make some sense is to run the pump at some low RPM from 8 am until 8 pm and then turn on High Speed say for an hour or two to help skim the pool better. So schedule High Speed from 11 am until 1 pm... Pump would run at say 1200 RPM from 8 until 11 when it would ramp up to 2800 until 1 pm when the pump would go back to 1200 RPM... (Just an example...)

I am not sure why your pump is not coming on yet..

Please show me what your Egg Timer page looks like, and Run Once page if anything is one it.. Plus the following page...

I just thought of something... If you turn something on and off manually you can screw up the schedule.. One you turn something manually it will run for 12 hours unless you have the egg timer set differently. The problem is depending on when you turn it on/off it may cause your schedule to get bypassed until the next time around...

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[matj6876]

Hey Jim

Thanks again for the continued advice - I think you may be on to something with the egg timers!
I know not what they do but there is a good chance that when I came to "fix" everything this evening... all my eggs had timed out!

Here's a missing piece of info... before everything went wrong this morning, I was also messing around with the Alexa integration:

"Alexa, ask pentair to turn on my pump"
"your pool has no circuit called pump"
"Alexa, ask pentair to turn on my pool"
"your pool has no circuit called phone"
"Alexa, ask pentair to turn on my pooooool"
"OK!"
​

A lot of fun but possibly quite scrambling.


I updated my schedule (see below) to get out of this double pump thing. I don't think that was the problem as that was what the PB set up and it ran well for 28 days before I worked my magic!
I also added the cleaner because that was what I was originally in Screen Logic for anyway!
I shut the pump down manually and disconnected the power from the pump and Easy Touch
I powered everything back up and.... as of 9:30pm... it seems to be responding to Easy Touch commands.
Will see what happens at 8am tomorrow.

So - should I do something with egg timers? make them shorter?


Screenshots for all requested screens below:

 

[Jimrahbe]

Matt,

Egg timers are used when you want to start something and have it shut off on its own or not shut off at all.. As an example, I have valve that I open to let fresh water into my pool. The egg timer is set for one hour.. This means that after one hour the fill line valve automatically shuts off. Obviously I don't want to schedule a start and stop time, as I never know when I will need to add water. The Default is 12 hours... Anything that I manually turn on will automatically shut off after 12 hours.. A default time does not count as a program.. while a modified one, like my water timer, does... I can only have 12 programs. This matters to you because your EasyTouch can only have 4 programs..

It appears you have 4 programs (schedules) now. You can eliminate the High Speed schedule simply by going into the pump config page and changing the "High Speed" circuit to "Cleaner". Do NOT select the pump TYPE again as this can wipe out all your speeds as you have already found out. So when Aux 1 closes, your booster pump will come on and your main pump should ramp up to the speed you have assigned for cleaner.

At this point I 'm inclined to believe that 24 hours of "none screwing with it time", will put you back on schedule...

Please let me know if this is not the case.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Jimrahbe]

A couple of other things...

I run my pump most of the time at 1200 RPM... 2600 seems awful fast to me. The whole point of having a VS pump is to run slow to save on the electric bill.

I asked about the equipment because of the pump.. the IntelliFlo i1 is an unusual choice as it is a "Special Needs" pump. It is generally used in places where pump flow rates are restricted by the city. This may be why you are running your pump at a much higher speed than I am.. (I did not think about that..)

Thanks again for posting,

Jim R.

 

[matj6876]

Hi Jim


Pump came on at 8am this morning so looks like I am, indeed, back on schedule there. Thank you.
I made the mod you suggested to the pump page for the "cleaner" circuit and will check that out today at 11am as I am working from home.

If you have time to help me clean up a loose end on the pump I would appreciate the additional advice.

It seems I have a habit, that I likely need to change, of simply accepting the PB equipment recommendations and not challenging them enough.
I tend to check that the price of the equipment is fair but not whether the equipment is the best fit for purpose.

For example - I did add the ET PL4 as soon as I moved in here, 4 years ago. I know I paid a fair price for it but I did not stop to ask if it was the right model. I just ran with what the PB said.
It may be that it's fine for me, my set up is pretty simple. But it could be that for a few hundred bucks extra I could have got the better model (4SC?) and been a little more future proof?

Same deal with the pump. The conversation went:

Me: "Why the i1 pump as opposed to the VS+ 011018??"
Pool Builder: "Same pump. Pentair has a i1 and i2. Has to do with available Amps."​

Again - I know I did not pay over the odds for the pump, but now I'm thinking... is this the best pump?
Did the choice of this pump in someway make the job easier for the PB... "Available Amps = I don't have to run another/different power line to pool equipment"??

All of that is the really long way round of asking... bad advice on the pump?? Is there any reason why here in Denton County (just up the road from you) I would have "special needs"?

Second question - I too was wondering about pump speeds and how I make sure they are set properly. I've read a bunch of people posting about running their VS pumps in the 1000-1800 RPM range. It already feels like at 2600RPM this pump has a lower flow rate than my old pump. Here's what I think I know (it's not much):

• I should try to turn my pool over at least once per day. I don't want my pump running when we're sleeping (due to location) so let's say I push up to 15 hours a day. That's 27000 gal in 900 mins or 30gpm
• If I run less than 2790 RPM then this pump does not drive a high enough flow rate to my booster pump when the cleaner is running. This was a straight trial & error process.

Do I need to get a flow meter (like this) or is there a different way of working out my flow rate?

Thanks again Jim - you've been an awesome help on this!

Cheers

MattJ

 

[Jimrahbe]

Matt,

There is no reason in your area that you are required to have the i1.. the i1 still requires a 20 amp breaker, so I don't understand your pool builder's Available amp statement. The i2 only requires a 15 amp breaker, so maybe he was thinking about that one.. Do you have any idea what size breaker is powering your pool equipment from the main circuit breaker panel in the house?? Do you have a breaker panel at the equipment pad?

If your last pump was a single speed pump, then it makes perfect sense that your VS pump will not make the water "look" the same unless the VS was running at full speed. You want to run the lowest speed you can, but that speed is something you have to determine.. Each pool and its plumbing are different.. You just need to experiment and see what works for you.

Here is what I would do... Reduce the speed to 1000 RPM and go out and check the flow light on the IC40... (Do not use ScreenLogic as there is often a long delay). If the flow light is green, keep reducing the speed until the light turns red... slowly increase the speed until the flow light just turns green. Add 100 RPM and that will be your minimum speed.. You don't have to run that speed, but you will know that you don't want to go any lower.

Turnovers are a myth... Obviously you need to run your pump a few hours a day, but chemicals are what keeps your water clear and not how many times the water passes through the filter. The filter is really there to capture dirt, bugs, and debris. It is not there to capture algae. Once you get algae, it is too late and it won't take but an hour to overload the filter.

Flow meters are not required. Cool to have for a few minutes, but not required.

It makes sense that your main pump has to be running pretty fast for your booster pump to operate your cleaner. I have a Robot cleaner, which does not use water power to run. Next time you want to spend a couple of bucks you should look at them. They clean the pool much better than any pressure side cleaner. I like the cleaning, but I really like that I don't have to look at it in my pool when it is not being used.

If I catch people before they buy I never recommend the "lite" version of the ET because of just what you said... "lack of future growth"...

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[matj6876]

Hi Jim - I'll have to go line by line on this one. Lots to digest!

There is no reason in your area that you are required to have the i1.. the i1 still requires a 20 amp breaker, so I don't understand your pool builder's Available amp statement. The i2 only requires a 15 amp breaker, so maybe he was thinking about that one.. Do you have any idea what size breaker is powering your pool equipment from the main circuit breaker panel in the house?? Do you have a breaker panel at the equipment pad?

I don't understand it either. Lesson learned that I need to be more of a PITA at the time. The breaker in the house is 20A. There is no breaker at the pad just a single 20A toggle switch.

If your last pump was a single speed pump, then it makes perfect sense that your VS pump will not make the water "look" the same unless the VS was running at full speed. You want to run the lowest speed you can, but that speed is something you have to determine.. Each pool and its plumbing are different.. You just need to experiment and see what works for you.

Here is what I would do... Reduce the speed to 1000 RPM and go out and check the flow light on the IC40... (Do not use ScreenLogic as there is often a long delay). If the flow light is green, keep reducing the speed until the light turns red... slowly increase the speed until the flow light just turns green. Add 100 RPM and that will be your minimum speed.. You don't have to run that speed, but you will know that you don't want to go any lower.

OK - that was a good exercise. I went out and dropped the ET into service mode and played with the pump as recommended. I'm learning a bunch, but for every solution you propose I seem to be able to come up with a bunch more questions and observations! Sorry!

• I'm guessing my IC40 is broken (as well!). I kept dropping the speed of the pump and the light never went red. So I turned the pump off but left the SWCG powered... still a green flow light. Left it like that for 30 mins... still green. So at a minimum my IC40 is not a reliable flow gauge, worse case it could be completely hosed. I've only just got my salt level up to the point where it it should be working so will watch to see if I actually get any chlorine produced this week!
• When I exit service mode, back to automatic, the pump (once again, per the original post) does not respond to ET commands. It's currently sitting, off, I guess for another 12 hours until it decides it wants to play again. This sucks. Would you advise setting the pump egg timer to 1 min to see if this behavior is correctable?
• When I drop back in to service mode, the pump also wont start up as it says "Running Schedule". I'm guessing that this pump does not like to be messed with. This seemed to time out after about 15 mins to allow more playing!
• I notice that my pump seems to be powered independently of my ET. Is that right? Meaning that when I'm in service mode the pump is "on/powered" regardless of whether the "Filter Pump" circuit is active or not.
• I notice that my pump has a flow rate read out on the display when in service mode. Is that generally thought to be an accurate reading? Here are the reading's I got a different speeds:
  
  

  RPM	GPM
  1000	0
  1100	2
  1500	4
  2000	8
  2500	13
  3000	20
  3450	30

  
  The pump is moving water from 1000 RPM down to 750RPM but below that (from 740RPM > 450RPM nothing is moving at all)

Long story short. To me - the pump doesn't seem to be moving enough water. I could be overreacting to the move from a SS to a VS pump but when I read things like "The IntelliChlor® SCG is designed to operate with water flow rates from 25 +/- 5 gallons per minute (gpm) up to 105 gpm." in the IC40 manual and look at what I am getting... I'm thinking... I'm going to have to bust this thing at 3200RPM all day just to be in the operational range of the SWCG. Something just doesn't feel right. Thoughts on unwinding my mind on this?

Turnovers are a myth... Obviously you need to run your pump a few hours a day, but chemicals are what keeps your water clear and not how many times the water passes through the filter. The filter is really there to capture dirt, bugs, and debris. It is not there to capture algae. Once you get algae, it is too late and it won't take but an hour to overload the filter.

Flow meters are not required. Cool to have for a few minutes, but not required.

I can buy that - I've been a TFP convert for over 10 years. I have my TF-100 test kit and I don't think I've put anything other than salt, acid, CYA & bleach in my pool for almost that long. But I've missed this bit of advice. Maybe because it's been the duration I need to run my SWCG that has driven pump run time. This is the first time I'm looking at different flow rates and realistically the first time I've considered turnover. But let me check I am reading that back to you OK. some turnover is necessary but (for my pool that does pretty well on bugs, vegetation, debris, etc) it's likely less than once a day and water chemistry is way more important. Right?

It makes sense that your main pump has to be running pretty fast for your booster pump to operate your cleaner. I have a Robot cleaner, which does not use water power to run. Next time you want to spend a couple of bucks you should look at them. They clean the pool much better than any pressure side cleaner. I like the cleaning, but I really like that I don't have to look at it in my pool when it is not being used.

That looks like a cool toy but I am going to have to wait a year or two after replastering until the pool budget will stretch to a robot... .

If I catch people before they buy I never recommend the "lite" version of the ET because of just what you said... "lack of future growth"...

Makes sense and further reinforces the education I've received as part of this thread! thank you!

 

[Jimrahbe]

Matt,

In no particular order...

When you switch to the Service mode, you basically disconnect the pump from being controlled by the ET... Service mode is what I use if I want to stop the pump and open the pump lid or clean my filter. It basically stops anything from "automatically" running the pump.

When in the service mode, ALL the lights on the SWCG should shut off... I suspect you pushed the "F" button to start the pump which is not what you want to do. I have never run my pump from the pump's control panel since I opened the pool four years ago...

I should have been more clear, you could just use ScreenLogic to adjust the speed up or down, without going into the Service mode. But use the IC40's flow light and not ScreenLogic to tell you about no flow because of the delay..

Now you have got me paranoid.. With low RPM your flow switch needs to shut off.. this is a safety device. I suggest you go out and look where the wires go into the SWCG. The cover around the wires just pops up. Look underneath and take a picture. The wires should come off the now visible flow switch and go into the cell itself. Since this is a new system, there should be no connectors. I am worried that the Pool builder shorted the flow switch so that it would work with your pump.. Maybe not, but the flow light never turning red means something is just not right.

The other safety feature is that the power to your SWCG power supply MUST be routed through the pump/filter relay.. This prevents the cell from getting power if the pump is off.. Please post a pic the relays and wiring in the bottom of your ET.

When the ET has power (and you are NOT in the Service mode) your pump's display should read "Display not Active".. this means the ET has control of your pump.. Try this a tell me what it says..

In theory, if your pump is running and you put the system in the Service mode, when you push the mode button (twice) to get back to auto, the pump should just come back on line with in less than 30 seconds..

Let's take one thing at a time... connect everything back up and exit the service mode and back to auto... Pump should read "Display not active"... What do you have?

Your ScreenLogic display should have a Green Icon for Pool.. (Only if the pool is scheduled to be on) If not green push the Icon and tell me what happened.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[matj6876]

Jim

Sorry for the delay in replying. Had to jump on a plane first thing this morning. This trip will also delay my troubleshooting until Friday!
Also means no pics as it was dark when I read your post last night and when I left this morning - sorry. Those will have to wait for Friday too

Yes I went to service mode and pressed "F". #VSRookieFail!!
I've now seen the page you mean in SL and realize how I can do it from there.

As for SWCG. Even though the pics didn't come out I did look at the flow switch and it appears un-tampered with.
I can also confirm that is is connected to the pump relay as once I dropped ET into service mode I had to press "F" to get the SWCG to power up.
Given the messing I have done with the pump in service mode I can definitely confirm that the flow light stays green even with no flow.
With limited reading online I suspect I may have a bad flow switch?

I can also confirm that when ET has power and is not in service mode pump display does say "Pump Address 1 Display Not Active!"
Exiting the service mode and back to Auto... it's like ET is locked out of the pump for (guess) 12 hours.
The button toggles green/grey - the relay clicks and the little red light above the "F" button on the ET panel toggles as you would expect... but the pump remains silent.
Yet this morning, at 8am, having been left overnight... it comes on and is singing away per the schedule!

Work around for pump - leave ET in auto mode for now!

Need to fix that SWCG first?

Thanks - as ever!

 

[Jimrahbe]

Matt,

Those are all good things.. Other than the flow switch, which should be repaired under warranty, it sounds like things are working.

When you get back, just let me know if you have any other questions...

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[matj6876]

Hi Jim

No warranty on the SWCG - it's not from this round of upgrades it's now over 4 years old.
I'll fly solo on getting that fixed - or maybe just replace the cell?

For now though, I will agree - yep! good!

Thanks for all your help!

Cheers

MattJ