in urgent need of help on stains on plaster from cleaning with 8.5% bleach

[Dirk]

Bob, is there any of the stain that is still above water? My stone guy is asking for a test of the stain, but I've asked him to better explain what he wants you to do. Stand by.

 

[bpascente]

James,
Thank you for your advice. can you advise on a scale remover? I am afraid if I go into a pool store, they will sell me things that a pool should not ingest.
Bob

- - - Updated - - -

Dirk,
Yes, I only filled about 1 foot last night to dilute the bleach. Additionally, I am going to empty again today, so I can pull and install the new light. Let me know what ur guy is thinking.
Thanks,
Bob

 

[JamesW]

I would suggest jacks #2 for copper and scale.

You might be able to do a no drain acid wash.

For a no drain acid wash, you lower the TA to zero and brush.

The water is corrosive so you don't want it going through the system or contacting anything else that might be adversely affected.

 

[bpascente]

Folks,
Looks like the majority is recommending jacks #2 for copper and scale. I will be offline until later today to finish the pool light and get the pool filled. I will get some flix and post the pictures later today and confirm the recommendation. Thank you all for taking time out of your day and night to help out.
Bob

 

[bpascente]

Hi Folks,
I (hope) I posted some pictures of the stains. An interesting note is that some of the staining seemed to dissipate as I swept with a stainless pool brush. However a lot did not.
Bob

 

[bpascente]

Hi folks,
I have changed the light and re-filled the pool. I want to start the pool up using TFP methods. I have taken the following readings, used the pool math page to calculate what I need to add. I would GREATLY appreciate if someone can check my numbers and math before I add anything that would be wrong. Thanks in advance!
Regards, Bob

FC = 0
CC =0
TC -0
PH =7.8
CH =225
TA = 120
CYA = 0

I am proposing to add the following for start-up before getting jack's Magic stain testing kit for black/grey stains that appeared as a result of bleach wash:

Bleach (8.5%) 40 oz., or 5 cups
Acid (31.45%) 14 oz, or 1.75 cups
CYA (granular) 50 oz, or 6.25 cups

 

[Texas Splash]

Hi Bob! You have the right idea. A couple things to consider - I'd program the bleach on day 1 for a simple goal of about 2-3 ppm since the stabilizer isn't quite in the water yet. It should be all dissolved by this evening or tomorrow. Tomorrow, you can increase the FC to the proper target range (5-7) based on your projected CYA (I/m guessing 40 from the calculator). I'm not sure what your pH goal was, but because you already have a known copper issue in the plaster, I'd keep the pH on the lower end between 7.2-7.4 for now. Metals stay in control a little better when the pH is on the low side. Hope that helps.

 

[bpascente]

Texas Splash, Thank you for the quick reply. My CYA target is 40, and my PH 7.4. I thought I read a FC recommendation of 2-3 always. Did I mis-read?
Also, I will likely need some on-going support with SLAMing if you believe I need to do that? This is what I failed at miserably the last time I tried to convert to TFP methods.
Bob

 

[Texas Splash]

I thought I read a FC recommendation of 2-3 always.

That must've been some miscommunication somewhere. Since your water hasn't had a chance to receive the dissolved stabilizer, the bleach will be more strong without any buffer, so a smaller 2-3 goal is good on day one. After that though, always refer to the Chlorine/CYA Chart (link in my sig) to balance the FC and CYA together. While your CYA is 40 now, it may change later in the season, so when it does, always go to that chart to ensure the FC matches your current CYA.

As for a SLAM, we'll be happy to guide you through that as well. You'll want to ensure there is no algae in the water before you receive the Magic Jacks, so the SLAM would be the first order of business. Gee Bob, now that you say that, I need to modify my instructions above - I'm sorry. Let's do it this way....

A SLAM requires a pH between 7.2-7.4. I'd go for 7.2 if I were you based on other factors. It will be fine. Next, do you have the sock(s) soaking for a CYA goal of 40 already? If so, that's fine. Then you can increase your FC to "16" tomorrow morning. Usually I'd say start now, but I don't want to aggravate the metal residue in your plaster if at all possible. So by tomorrow the stabilizer should all be dissolved (squeeze frequently if needed), make sure the pH is at about 7.2, then push the FC to "16" and keep it there all day tomorrow and throughout the evening as best as you can.

Since you just did a 100% drain, your SLAM should go quickly as I suspect any residual algae would be in the plumbing or filter. If you haven't done so already, you might want to rinse that filter tomorrow as well, but continue to maintain the FC at 16. Tomorrow evening, try an overnight (OCLT) test as explained on the TFP Pool School - Perform the Overnight FC Loss Test (OCLT) page. Take your last FC test about bedtime, then take another FC test in the morning before the sun hits the water. Since you are doing a SLAM, the pump will already be on continually mixing the water (low speed is fine) which is great. You might get lucky and pass the OCLT (Thursday morning) by not losing anymore than 1 ppm of FC overnight. If you pass, the SLAM is over and you can let the FC fall naturally by the AZ sun down to the normal range.

That should do it for now Bob. If you have any questions, just holler.

 

[bpascente]

Wow, I think I remember why I couldn't pass the SLAM last time.....So I was going to add the CYA into my skimmer. Is that OK as I am not familiar with the sock method?
Also, a few gates to starting B4 this Friday PM with a SLAM......1st, I have been fighting black algae for the past 2 summers (It abates in the winter so is not showing much now, very faint). So knowing that, will a SLAM not work, or will it just take longer and eat more bleach (I only have 330 ounces on hand)?
I prefer not to run my pump continuously until after 6pm Friday and before 3pm Mondays as I am on a time of use power plan and get severely penalized for use from 3pm to 6pm weekdays (Weekends are good all day/night).
Also, I have a large, 4 filter cartridge filter. I just purchased 4 new filters and am waiting to remove the metals from the pool before putting the new ones in. Should I consider metal elimination first B4 slam, targeting CYA lower than 40 and continue using pucks until I do SLAM (as this will raise the CYA?).
I am sorry about all the questions but I am a bit overwhelmed and have spent so much $$ and don't want to do things in the wrong order or do it wrong as I am already exhausted from what I have done. I want to ensure success after all these efforts.
I truly appreciate your help, advice and availability,
Bob

 

[Texas Splash]

Bob, you definitely want to complete a SLAM before treating for metals. When treating for residual metals, you won't want an elevated FC level. If you wish to target a lower CYA, then 30 is perfect and that would make your new FC (SLAM) level a "12". Definitely don't add the stabilizer granules to the skimmer. They are still acidic and not good in that area. Plus, they will get sucked into the filter cartridges and you won't have a way to squeeze them. Place the required amount of stabilizer in a white sock and tie it off. Then you can hang the sock from the edge of your pool or even from a floating device if you like. I hang mine from the edge of the pool so that I can reach it and squeeze the sock often. With soaking and squeezing every 20 min or so, my stabilizer was all dissolved in about 2 hours.

So plan on a CYA of 30 and FC of 12 and do your best to maintain it at 12. Don't worry about any other types of algae or residual organic stains that may linger. Some of those, just like your potential copper staining, could take a while to remove. The focus right now is to pass a regular SLAM and ensure the water is algae-free in preparation for your Magic Jack's testing and treatments. The pump should run 24/7 during a SLAM, but you'll have to do the best you can based on your agreements locally. Just understand it may slow the SLAM down a little. Also, rinsing the filters is only required if the filer PSI increases by 20-25%. If it increases like that, it means your cartridges are catching dead algae which is good, but then they need to be rinsed. If your pressure doesn't increase, you may not have much at all since you drained the water anyway.

Remember the key to a successful SLAM is to maintain that FC (12). So try to have several gallons of bleach on-hand if it falls. You may test FC frequently at first, but once it begins to hold on its own, you'll see a pattern of how often to test and add bleach. Again, with fresh new water, I don't suspect you will have to SLAM too terribly long, but let's do it right just to be sure. For tonight, make sure you have already added "some" bleach to the water to keep algae away. If you haven't added the stabilizer yet, just add enough bleach for about 3 ppm. If you did add stabilizer, add enough bleach for an FC goal of 12. Have a nice evening!

 

[bpascente]

Hi TS,
So you are saying that adding stabilizer to the skimmer will not disperse into pool water fast enough? Sorry for all the questions, but I guess I need to become a chemist to do this. I have always added to my skimmer as directed on bottle. Also, I have not cleaned my cartridge filters in over a year. I picked a filter that is soooo oversized for the pool that it NEVER changes PSI unless the basket is full. It has never changed PSI based soley on the filtering water thru it. I clean yearly just cause I figure I should, not because PSI goes down. Also, should I use a less burdensome way to communicate with you so that the entire website is not being burdened with a lot of these exchanges? Don't know how this works and what is best for all....or do you consider this site a "Learning hospital" and all should be able to see all?

 

[Texas Splash]

So you are saying that adding stabilizer to the skimmer will not disperse into pool water fast enough?

It will, but it will take longer. If you dump granules into the skimmer, they will get sucked into the filter and stay in the pleats of the cartridges. Then there's the potential of them getting rinsed out during cleaning. Placing in a sock keeps them contained and allows you to squeeze/compress the granules which helps them disperse quicker and increase your CYA quicker. Now this statement:

I have always added to my skimmer as directed on bottle.

sounds more like the liquid stabilizer that we call "liquid gold" because it is so much more expensive than regular granules.

Also, I have not cleaned my cartridge filters in over a year.

With an oversized filter, perhaps not a big deal as long as your filter gauge is working properly. And for regular debris they may not need to be rinsed, but if there was ever a chance you had algae at some point, and it sounds like there was, then opening it up for a good cleaning could be a good thing.

Also, should I use a less burdensome way to communicate with you so that the entire website is not being burdened with a lot of these exchanges?

No, this is fine. Others will learn things from your discussions as well. This is your thread, so let's us it.

So for today, plan on a CYA goal of 30 and an FC of 12 and do your best to maintain it at 12. Like I said, with fresh water your SLAM shouldn't be all that long since the focus will be more on the plumbing and filter. Have a good "SLAM" day.

 

[Texas Splash]

Also Bob, I'm going to be at some appointments today, so I'll catch-up on your thread when I get back. In the meantime, others will help I'm sure. Remember, if in doubt about anything, go back to post #31 and that says it all for now. Let the SLAM process do its thing. Good luck!

 

[bpascente]

Hi TS,
Looks like I will have to start SLAM later today or tomorrow. My CYA is too low and I ran out of it (granular). So off to the store to get more as well as stock up on bleach. Below are the readings from this AM:

FC = 10
CC =0
TC -N.A.
PH =7.3
CH =250
TA = 110
CYA = 15 (ish...DOT is pretty cloudy if reading tube is filled past the 20 mark, all the way to the top).

Last night I added 3.5 dry cups of CYA to sock and squeezed until all dissipated into the pool water. I will go back to pool math to confirm, but will likely only add 1 more DRY cup of CYA to the sock today (don't want to get above 60ppm, and know that the test tube markings are NOT linear, not sure how close to 15 I stand).

Oh, BTW, I am more convinced the staining is Copper, because after I added the bleach last night, the stains came out nice and strong this AM....

Hope you had a good day,
Bob

 

[AftonJeeper]

The CYA takes a few days to show on the test so you can just assume the CYA is at 30 now. No reason to add any more at this point it will just raise you shock level for the slam. Go ahead and follows Pat's instruction in post #31 and continue the slam with the shock level of 12.

 

[bpascente]

Thank you for your response, and for pointing out Texas Splash's AKA name!
Bob

 

[Texas Splash]

Last night I added 3.5 dry cups of CYA

When I do the calculator, it looks like that amount would just barely get you over a CYA of 20 which is probably why the black dot looks cloudy but isn't going away completely. So it might not hurt to grab some more when you get a chance and maybe add another 1 cup.

Since this was a fresh fill and we were mainly concerned with residual junk in the plumbing and filter, I would also consider doing an overnight (OCLT) test this evening. Pool School - Perform the Overnight FC Loss Test (OCLT) I know you haven't technically been able to reach those ideal SLAM numbers, but this is fresh water, your CYA is a little low, and your FC is at 10 which is pretty good at the moment. Who knows, you might just pass it tomorrow. So If you can, keep the FC at 10 for the rest of the day and this evening. Do one last test and adjustment if needed to make sure it's at 10 before bed, then check in the morning before the sun hits the water. If your FC stayed at 9 or above, you passed and won't need to go any further with a SLAM. That would be a good thing. Let us know how it goes.

 

[bpascente]

Pat,
I will keep the FC at 10-12, bring it back up at about 10pm. Then I will do the OCLT tomorrow as well as add a bit more CYA if CYA test has not increased as Aftonjeeper suggested it may. I have yet to clean my filters yet and was wondering if it is necessary to pass (it has been over a year since cleaned, but since its so oversized at 420 SF, the pressure never moves)? I was going to clean b4 the jack's magic stain removal process and let these old filters catch all the sequestered metals and then throw away and put brand new cartridge filters in. Is this a feasible plan? Just trying to save as much back breaking work as possible. Thank you again for your continued guidance!
Bob

 

[Texas Splash]

Sure, go ahead and leave the filter and everything as-is for now. Just maintain the FC at 10 for the rest of today and this evening, verify it again before bed, then test the FC first-thing tomorrow. If you pass the OCLT (do not lose more than 1 ppm of FC) then you will be in great shape for the Jack's stuff when it arrives. Now if you fail the overnight test by tomorrow morning's reading, then you know you need to do the SLAM until you pass. I'm feeling optimistic for tomorrow's FC reading.