IC60 & IntelliPH no longer working (5 months old) - Input?

[tomas21]

 

[Dirk]

Yah, they look OK. Wow, that blob is the melted connector? If ya gotta go, go big! It looks like one of those freaky pics of a twin that got absorbed! Just a tooth is left!! Oops, I just grossed myself out.

So if you want to try the fix, let me know...

 

[tomas21]

 

[tomas21]

IC60 is set at 70% 7a - 4p
iPH is set at 75%

 

[Dirk]

@ogdento, where is that drawing you did about your idea for connecting the IntellipH wiring before it gets to the board?

You established that the reds and blacks can be connected to each other (red to red, black to black), and then also connected to the board with a single red and a single black. Can that be done with the comm wires, too, or do they have to go through the board as is, with both greens and both whites soldered to their respective circuit board holes?

 

[Dirk]

IC60 is set at 70% 7a - 4p

Yah, that means the IC is drawing current through the IpH 42 minutes out of every hour, for nine hours straight. The theory is that maybe this wouldn't happen if the IpH board had the opportunity to cool down more between IC runs. I'm not sure of that. I'm stickin' with my theory that crummy conductor materials are encouraging corrosion and/or arcing. Academic, except we were exploring why this happens to some, and not others, and why it might be fine for years and then fail (that was mine). That's why I think it's corrosion. Something that happens only under certain conditions, and might take a little or a lot of time to develop.

No matter, the fixes eliminate the possibility because they eliminate both pieces of the four-wire connector altogether. We're still not quite sure what causes the adjacent components to also sometimes fry. There's some evidence that those failures were related to power grid spikes. Those components are part of the COMM buss, not the power buss, so an energy spike might fit.

Oh, there's more. Some are toying with the idea of coating all IntelliChlor related conductors with a contact grease that would inhibit corrosion and enhance conductivity. But, of course, you'd have to use that before it melts. I will probably do that before this next winter.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00HDF9EXE

 

[Dirk]

PS. I can feel you rolling your eyes, thinking "Geez, I just wanna go for a swim. I don't want to enroll in an Advanced Electronics 201 class!!

 

[Dirk]

By the way, 70% for nine hours illustrates why an IC40 would be too small for your pool. You'd probably have to run it at 100% for most of the day and night. We always suggest an SWG be rated for twice the pool volume. Your 29K needs that IC60.

 

[ogdento]

yikes that connector got hot!!

the comm wires go through the relay. the 2 red wires connect to each other via the pins on the connector and are then tied together via the board traces (the black wires are connected the same way).
here's a link to that post....

Pentair ic40, surge board, intelliph and swg transformer.

It’s hard to tell but it looks like in the bottom left a little chips might be burned Same chips that blew on my surgeon board. Right near d3 and d4. That’s why it’s not communicating with the ic40. Replacing the surge board fixed it. I can change the ic40 and it reports salt level back to the app.

www.troublefreepool.com

the point of failure is the connector assembly... the red wire mates to the connector and a lot of current passes through the mating components of the connector assembly and clearly generates a lot of heat.

and this is in the same thread but has a link to where @rstrouse described how the relay connects/disconnects the comm wires

Pentair ic40, surge board, intelliph and swg transformer.

It’s hard to tell but it looks like in the bottom left a little chips might be burned Same chips that blew on my surgeon board. Right near d3 and d4. That’s why it’s not communicating with the ic40. Replacing the surge board fixed it. I can change the ic40 and it reports salt level back to the app.

www.troublefreepool.com

folks following the intelliph issues will be aware, but i wanted to point out that this failure - where high current burns up the red wires on the connector - is a different failure from the lightning/surge issue we've seen that destroy the ground wire, the relay, and most of the communication components.

 

[Dirk]

OK, thanks, that's clear. So the way to mod an un-fried IntellipH is to leave the connector alone. That solves for the COMM bus, as the white and green wires will be left in place. Then to connect the two reds together, and then the two black togethers, before the connector in whatever way is handiest (terminal block, cut and solder, even wire nuts, whatever). I'm thinking you could also leave the blacks and reds in the connector alone, too. That would supply the power the board needs. Just splicing the reds together and the blacks together is all you'd have to do. @ogdento, does that sound right?

@ogdento, out of curiosity, from an electron perspective so to speak, if the two reds are touching with sufficient contact, and the two black are touching, before the connector, but they're both still wired to the connector and ultimately touching again, via the traces on the board, does the flow of current (all the electrons) get split equally between those four touch points, or is the current that would flow through the connector and the traces on the board only what the board is drawing, and the current that flows through the other touch points (the ones before the connector) carry all the current that the IntellliChlor is drawing. See what I'm getting at?

To fix a fried connector, you'd cut off the connector, after making note of which green wires and white wires go to which pins, connect the reds, and the blacks, each with a third wire, that would connect to the corresponding pins on the board. You'd still be left with soldering the greens and the whites to the board. That's the tough part.

Also, @ogdento, just so I'm clear, the COMM connections on the IntellipH don't work like connecting COMM wires elsewhere, like to an EasyTouch or ScreenLogic or an Indoor Controller, where you just connect together all the wires of the same color. The IntellipH board actually disconnects (interrupts) the COMM wires running through it. Do I have that right?

Sorry tomas, @ogdento is the guy I told you about that has figured out a better version of the fix. I'm picking his brain to better understand exactly how the fix works, so I can better describe it to others, like yourself. I'm the facilitator! I don't know what I'm talking about, but I just happen to know who does!!

 

[ogdento]

hey @Dirk... i quoted your first four paragraphs and I'm replying to each... (I started writing this last night and had to go to bed!)

quote #1

OK, thanks, that's clear. So the way to mod an un-fried IntellipH is to leave the connector alone. That solves for the COMM bus, as the white and green wires will be left in place. Then to connect the two reds together, and then the two black togethers, before the connector in whatever way is handiest (terminal block, cut and solder, even wire nuts, whatever). I'm thinking you could also leave the blacks and reds in the connector alone, too. That would supply the power the board needs. Just splicing the reds together and the blacks together is all you'd have to do. @ogdento, does that sound right?

Yes that sounds right to me! It's almost like you want to crimp the two red wires together before letting them go into the connector on the board (and do the same with the black wires)

quote #2

@ogdento, out of curiosity, from an electron perspective so to speak, if the two reds are touching with sufficient contact, and the two black are touching, before the connector, but they're both still wired to the connector and ultimately touching again, via the traces on the board, does the flow of current (all the electrons) get split equally between those four touch points, or is the current that would flow through the connector and the traces on the board only what the board is drawing, and the current that flows through the other touch points (the ones before the connector) carry all the current that the IntellliChlor is drawing. See what I'm getting at?

my head hurts and there's a bit at play here, but if I'm understanding what you're describing... the first point where the reds are crimped/connected/soldered would act like a zero-ohm resistor or a "short" (let's call it R-short) that is in parallel with the second point that - for simplicity - includes the poorly-mated-connector-halves and the pc board trace, which would act like a low-ohm resistor (let's call it R-connector). In that case, since R-short and R-connector are in parallel, R-short prevents any voltage drop across R-connector... so no current can flow through R-connector. Of course, depending on where you connected the jumper wire to power the board there could be some current through some part of R-connector, but it would only be as much as the board draws. I think??

quote #3

To fix a fried connector, you'd cut off the connector, after making note of which green wires and white wires go to which pins, connect the reds, and the blacks, each with a third wire, that would connect to the corresponding pins on the board. You'd still be left with soldering the greens and the whites to the board. That's the tough part.

I'd do almost exactly what you described in quote #1 (leave the connector alone, leave the white/green wires untouched)... but it depends on the condition of the red/black terminals on the connector... if at least one of each is still decent enough to power the board, I'd:
1. cut the reds/blacks off 1-2 inches from where the wire enters the connector, leaving short "stubs" of wire on the connector
2. splice the "now freed" wires together (reds together and blacks together)
3. run a jumper to one of the remaining "stubs" left on the connector
caveat: If both red, or both black pins on the connector were totally gone I'd cut the red/black wires closer to the connector - skipping the stubs - and run a new red/black wire to power the board.

a picture would work better here

quote #4

Also, @ogdento, just so I'm clear, the COMM connections on the IntellipH don't work like connecting COMM wires elsewhere, like to an EasyTouch or ScreenLogic or an Indoor Controller, where you just connect together all the wires of the same color. The IntellipH board actually disconnects (interrupts) the COMM wires running through it. Do I have that right?

correct - the comm wires connected the board are interrupted - connected or disconnected - by the relay.

 

[tomas21]

Pentair is sending out a local service tech to "evaluate" the situation under our warranty coverage.... should be interesting to hear what they have to say... Wonder what the latest boards look like and if connector situation is the same ...

Pentair tech's state... In the x amount of years I have worked here I have never had a claim related to the IntelliPH and a burnt connector... come on.. : )

 

[Turbo1Ton]

Pentair tech's state... In the x amount of years I have worked here I have never had a claim related to the IntelliPH and a burnt connector... come on.. : )

Mark it down son... It's your first but not your last.

--Jeff

 

[Flying Tivo]

There is a 3rd Option that @Dirk does not like to mention because i beat him to it, and he is jealous!
I would never use the iPh in series with the IC. Too much of a risk.

IntelliPh control box down.

Control box not working, read up on @bdavis466 post about wiring through a relay. I understand the wiring, but my question is: Can i get the 26VDC from the SWG control board (this is where the PH gets its original power from)on the extra connector of my ET8 with integrated SWG transformer? Dont...

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[Zaffor]

I am having similar issues and would love to jump on board here if possible (if not I can create a new post). Our pool is around 18months old and I also run an IC60 with Intelliph and Intellicenter. Originally my IC seemed to not be creating chlorine. I had full control of the unit and it was able to communicate with the intellicenter but chlorine output was very low. Pentair sent a tech over and they assumed it was the flow switch/temp sensor which they swapped out. Problem persisted and they swapped the whole IC60 with a new one which didnt solve the problem. After several weeks of back/forth I noticed my IC lights were off. After some investigation I found the wires at the intelliph melted as shown by others and my surge board in the intellicenter also showed some damage. Here are some photos…



Pentair had the whole Intelliph as well as the surge board replaced and the system started working fine. I run my pump 24/7 and was running the IC60 in the low 20%.

Fast forward a few months and I noticed my chlorine output severely lowered again just like in the beginning. I have bypassed the intelliph but the problem persists. Could the surge board be bad again??? Doesnt look damaged. I have full control of the IC60 but output is at 100% and I am adding chlorine weekly.

I was also having to reboot the IC to power cycle the Intelliph because it would completely freeze up (not dispense and the screen would say SUPERCHLOR) but IC60 continued working fine and as soon as I would reboot it would work fine. Sometimes it would last several weeks and sometimes just a week or 2. Not sure if this is related to the above issue or just that the intelliph didnt like running 24/7.

I apologize for the long winded post but I wanted to make sure I didnt miss any details which could help solve this issue.

Any help appreciated and after reading through all these posta I may attempt the fix#2 once the IC60 starts working as it should.
@MyAZPool

 

[ogdento]

Man @Zaffor sorry to see it. Yours is another one where the comm circuitry is fried, as well as the red/black leads to the connector. The comm line looks to have had some kind of surge event because the relay blew and all the protection diodes (thyristors) are dead, and I'd bet the comm chip is dead... but why are the red wires on your connector also burned up?!

@Turbo1Ton 's intelliph died from overcurrent/overheating, in which case the red wires burned, but the his comm circuitry did not appear to get smoked.

@Zaffor's comm circuitry appears to have been whacked by a surge or lightning on the comm wires - and everything burned, just like @slickrock22

@Latitude22's comm circuitry all got completely smoked but his red wires are fine

Here's a picture of another fried intelliph boards I received (I pulled the relay)... everything burned on this one too, although the comm chip didn't explode and the red wires weren't as bad as Zaffor's:


The thing I'd like to know is why (and if) a zap to the comm circuitry from a surge or lightning smokes the whole board... In my photo above, the missing protection diode had "failed short", as did the comm chip (it doesn't appear damaged, but it's a got dead short from vcc to gnd). The board gets power from the huge red/black wires that also supply the swg, which can be 5 amps and up at 25-30 volts?... but that is fed into a 5v regulator before getting to the onboard electronics and none of that seems affected at all.

My thought was that a dead short in the comm chip would short the 5v regulator and cause a tremendous current in the thick red wires - but the regulator should have built-in limit or thermal shutdown, and nether the regulator nor the traces around it are damaged so I'm not sure how the sh*tty connector for the red/black wires is getting smoked? Is it that the two failures (overcurrent and comms) coincidentally happen at the same time, or does the comm failure somehow also cause an overcurrent of it's own??

 

[Dirk]

my head hurts and there's a bit at play here, but if I'm understanding what you're describing... the first point where the reds are crimped/connected/soldered would act like a zero-ohm resistor or a "short" (let's call it R-short) that is in parallel with the second point that - for simplicity - includes the poorly-mated-connector-halves and the pc board trace, which would act like a low-ohm resistor (let's call it R-connector). In that case, since R-short and R-connector are in parallel, R-short prevents any voltage drop across R-connector... so no current can flow through R-connector. Of course, depending on where you connected the jumper wire to power the board there could be some current through some part of R-connector, but it would only be as much as the board draws. I think??

Thank you for the walk through on all my ponderings!!

For this one q&a that I quoted, I think we're not quite talking the exact same scenario. This was for mod'ing the IpH before the connector fails. There would be no jumper to power the board. The factory wiring and funky connector would be doing that. Everything stays in place as it was built. That would power the board. Shorting the two reds together, and the two blacks together, before they go into the funky connector, would be our mod.

So my question was about what happens to all the current the IC is still pulling. Does all of it pass through the short? Except for the small amount the board is drawing? Or does the current split evenly across the parallel paths, half through the short (R-short), and half through the original path (what you called R-connector).

I think what you explained answered the question, though. If the faulty conductors within the funky connector start to resist the current, it won't heat up like before, because all the current (except what the board is still drawing) will take the path of least resistance (literally) and flow through R-short.

But I also now see what you were getting at with the jumper. If R-short is established (for reds and blacks), and that connection (soldered or crimped, whatever) includes a jumper wire, that jumper wire could be soldered onto the pins that go from the funky connector to the circuit board. So no matter what the faulty conductors were doing in terms of corrosion or resistance, it wouldn't matter, because they would be completely bypassed. That is probably the ultimate mod for preventing this problem.

And that same mod could be used to repair a fried connector, too! OK, now I see what you were getting at. Basically you do the same mod whether the pin is showing signs of excessive heat or not.

Sorry to be so thick, just trying to get this crystal clear in my mind.

 

[Dirk]

This is what I've come up with to illustrate the fix (to the over-current problem). Basically the same as @ogdento's, just a different approach. There are three variations. The splices could be soldered (my preference) or crimped or even wire-nutted, or achieved in some other way (@ogdento suggested using a terminal block to make the connections). If soldered, I'm picturing some sort of epoxy or even hot glue to seal up and insulate the connection. In the variations that use a jumper wire, I'm showing the jumper wire wrapping around the thicker two wires, and then all that would get soldered. You could use that MO for the variation that doesn't have a jumper, too. Where the wires pass through the splice, I would just shave the insulation off the wires without cutting the wire itself. That's the way I'd do it, but there are plenty of other ways to make that connection. The trick is to make a good mechanical and electrical connection that would ward off any corrosion (which is why I like to solder).

This first variation could be used when the connector hasn't yet melted. A pro-active preventative measure. Something like this is all Pentair would have to do to solve for this issue.



Variation #2 would be used for a fried connector, assuming the burn wasn't too severe. Though some of the IC60 melt downs are pretty bad.



Variation #3 is a hybrid, which could be used whether the connector was burned or not, again, assuming the burn wasn't too severe. This is what I would do if I had it to do over again. Instead, I removed the connector and soldered the large wires directly onto the board. That's a viable fix if you can pull off the soldering, but this way would be easier with less chance of messing up the board. I'm going to go back in and connect the reds and blacks as shown, just to alleviate all that current flowing through the traces of my board. Perhaps all that current through the traces is a contributing factor to those other COM components burning up?



Just want to point out that this has yet to be tried by anyone (that I know of): splicing the reds and blacks together before the connector, that is. This is our best guess of a fix. You could be first!

Edit: I can now confirm, or rather @Lake Placid can, that this fix works. He tried variation #3 and has brought his IC40 back to life!

Another IPH burned connection issue

Roughly two years ago I bought a used but in good condition IPH to manage ph with my IC40. Everything worked well until this year when the IC40 started randomly power cycling, running through the startup procedure then shutting off and starting the same loop. In troubleshooting I noted when...

www.troublefreepool.com

Removing the burned connector and soldering the eight wires directly to the board does work, I can confirm that, as that solved my IntelllipH failure, and has been working for several months now.

 

[Dirk]

Pentair tech's state... In the x amount of years I have worked here I have never had a claim related to the IntelliPH and a burnt connector... come on.. : )

That's ridiculous, there are even comments about it on Pentair's own IntellipH page, in its Questions section! Pentair acknowledged the comments, with a generic answer, but that means somebody over there read 'em...

IntellipH pH Controller

IntellipH Controller is a safe and convenient way to regulate a swimming pool's ph level. It automatically dispenses muriatic acid into the pool to eliminate fluctations in the pH level. IntellpH is the perfect companion for the IntelliChlor salt chlorine generator.

www.pentair.com

 

[Zaffor]

Man @Zaffor sorry to see it. Yours is another one where the comm circuitry is fried, as well as the red/black leads to the connector. The comm line looks to have had some kind of surge event because the relay blew and all the protection diodes (thyristors) are dead, and I'd bet the comm chip is dead... but why are the red wires on your connector also burned up?!

I didnt see alot of damage to the actual wires, it seemed to be isolated to the white connector at the iph. My system running 24hrs non stop probably made it worse? I don’t remember any kind of surge as nothing else was damaged. I installed a Siemens FS140 on the pool sub panel that feeds the intellicenter as well as on the main house panel in the garage. Nothing else in the home took any damage. It seems that the IC60 was acting up since very early on. But no damage was visible. Because of the iph freezing up, Pentair actually sent me a new controller (i still have the original one saved in the garage) but changing it out didnt solve the issue (that it would lock up). I actually extended the wire that feeds the IC60/Iph with 16g wire through a terminal block (i wanted it all in conduit with clean serviceable connections) and none of those wires show any damage or discoloration. Seems to be isolated to the iph and surge board. Before the damage showed up I had full control of cell, it reported back the salinity and It would respond to pool/spa mode changing the output. It was iust not creating the amount of chlorine it was supposed to. It wasnt completely dead either as when I dropped it in a bucket with pool water and plugged it in i saw it bubble up and create chlorine. I really didn’t notice the damage until the lights on the cell went out completely. Thats when I opened up the intellicenter and saw the surge board damaged. The green light on the surge board was still on as well. Perhaps these details can help you narrow down where these failures originate?

Im going to call pentair to have them reopen my ticket or create a new one. I had already been going back and forth with them about the iph freezing up. I have to report that the IC60 is now also not working correctly. (they replaced the iph control unit AGAIN which didnt do anything).

Here is a photo of how I made my connections to the extension wires. I had to extend everything including valves, coms, temp sensor. This j box has several intellivalves the 2 pump communication wires and the temp sensor.