Just keep in mind that if it is open AND exposed to direct sunlight that the bromine will get depleted by the UV in sunlight. So when you are measuring the bromine loss, do so with the cover on.
How much MPS do I use for initial shock?
- Thread starter momof3boys
- Start date
OK, put 5.4 oz in to try to get it to 12 (based on PoolMath) and after 30 minutes it is now 8.75. Should I just close her up for the night and check in the morning? By the way, ph went back up to 7.8 for some reason too. That was tested before I put the last 5.4 oz of bleach in (if that matters at all).
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Thank you for that information. I will make sure and close it from now on when it's sunny. It was in the shade for the last addition of bleach and testing.
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Thank you for that information. I will make sure and close it from now on when it's sunny. It was in the shade for the last addition of bleach and testing.
Sure, you can do that and see how it goes. The pH will tend to rise over time from outgassing. That's why you want the TA lower and (eventually) to put in 50 ppm Borates.
OK, I guess I need to learn about borates. No clue about that. I just tested and got bromine of 5. It was 8.75 last night. Ph is 7.8, alk is 70 and CH is 120. Temp is 87°. What should I do next?
So you have a 43% loss over 12 hours or so. Still quite a high rate of loss. If it were my spa I'd use Ahh-Some and change the water, maybe even more than once if there were a lot of junk coming out from the Ahh-Some. Unfortunately it sounds like if you go that route that your husband will want to just junk the spa completely. I think this is salvageable but it's up to you.
If you wanted to live with it as is, you could do so but would have to add oxidizer to the spa as much as twice a day or certainly a lot every day given the high demand.
If you wanted to live with it as is, you could do so but would have to add oxidizer to the spa as much as twice a day or certainly a lot every day given the high demand.
Oh, that depresses me just thinking about it. We thought we did the right thing with the Swirl Away. I wish I could warn everyone about this spa place and their "advice". There is no way I could be adding oxidizer that much though. What the heck would happen if we went out of town? Ugh.
I will talk to my husband. He is just over it and the expense.
So the idea with bromine is that the bromine tabs in the feeder should be able to add enough to keep up with background dosing in between soaks. If you didn't have such a high bromine demand, you'd be able to use the tabs in a feeder for vacations or whenever you weren't using the spa every day.
There are two other alternatives for handling background dosing. One is to have an ozonator and use bromine since ozone will create bromine from a bromide bank (i.e. from the sodium bromide you add initially). The other alternative is to use chlorine with salt and a saltwater chlorine generator such as the ControlOMatic TechniChlor.
There are two other alternatives for handling background dosing. One is to have an ozonator and use bromine since ozone will create bromine from a bromide bank (i.e. from the sodium bromide you add initially). The other alternative is to use chlorine with salt and a saltwater chlorine generator such as the ControlOMatic TechniChlor.
We still have the feeder still open fully. It has been 4½ hours since I tested last and it is now down to 3.75 and my husband just got in. He wants me to wait a few days before making a decision to dump and start over again.
What is the process for adding an ozonator? I assume I would have to involve the spa place?
I asked about running this on salt and they said it was too corosive for the jets, pipes, etc. Is that another lie from Spa Guy?
OK, I was just reading up in the booklet about my spa type. It says: "Every H2X Swim Spa by Master Spas also features an advanced Ozone system that kills pathogens and microorganisms, destroys organic material, and oxidizes non-organic contaminants to keep your water clean and refreshing every time you use your swim spa."
I am going to call the manufacturer tomorrow to check that out and to see when it runs, etc. When we turn on the jets, "Ozone" shows up in the display. Tonight was the first time we noticed that.....because I was looking for it.
I also wanted to ask you about scale defense. Spa Guy said to put it in once a week and the mfg. also recommends that, but I hadn't heard you mention that and wanted to see your thoughts. I'm not adding anything without asking you first!
I also wanted to ask you about scale defense. Spa Guy said to put it in once a week and the mfg. also recommends that, but I hadn't heard you mention that and wanted to see your thoughts. I'm not adding anything without asking you first!
OK, I talked to the mfg. They said it DOES have an ozonator...good to know. They also said we don't have to do anything to it to make it run and it just "does its own thing".
I did just check my levels. Water is still clear, but it's not holding the bromine well. My husband was only in it for about 30 minutes last night and the bromine level stayed at 3.75 before and after. (I made him shower first.) I then put 2 oz of bleach in it. I did not check the level after that until just a bit ago.
Br 2.5
ph 8
alk 70
ch 120
si 0.19
I did just check my levels. Water is still clear, but it's not holding the bromine well. My husband was only in it for about 30 minutes last night and the bromine level stayed at 3.75 before and after. (I made him shower first.) I then put 2 oz of bleach in it. I did not check the level after that until just a bit ago.
Br 2.5
ph 8
alk 70
ch 120
si 0.19
OK, if you put the right amount of Broma-Start in then the ozonator should be making ozone so between that and the bromine tabs you should be able to get bromine maintained in the background with no problem. So you just add an oxidizer after your soak. Maybe you are past the worst of the unusual bromine demand.
Note that with an ozonator it will oxidize some of the bromide to bromate so you'll need to add more broma-start every so often. Unfortunately I can't tell you how often since I don't know the strength of the ozonator. I would guess that you need to refresh as if it were a new spa about once a month. Technically, the way to tell would be if the background dosing wasn't working as well so that you needed to keep turning up your bromine feeder. If you add more broma-start and you get more bromine again (not immediately, but over time as the ozonator runs), then you'll know that was it.
You need to lower your pH. That's why they recommend the scale defense to prevent calcium carbonate scale, especially in the gas heater. Add acid to lower the pH and if you aren't able to maintain the pH to keep it closer to 7.7 (or lower is OK) then you can use the scale defense as a crutch. It would be better if you just lowered your TA to around 50 ppm and then used 50 ppm Borates and maintained the pH that way, but up to you which way you want to go. By the way, I only get the saturation index you got if I use a high temperature in PoolMath -- I thought you wrote that you kept the spa cooler at around 87-92ºF or so, right?
Also, if you use MPS, it is net acidic so should lower the pH and over time the TA. So keep an eye on these. You don't want the TA to get too low or else the pH can crash down. 7 teaspoons of non-chlorine shock (43% MPS) which is enough for one person-hour with no ozonator would lower the TA by 13 ppm in 1000 gallons.
Note that with your ozonator, you should be able to roughly cut in half the recommended dosing I gave you, but again the real rule is to add whatever you need to in order to get to the 2-4 ppm bromine level for the start of your next soak.
Note that with an ozonator it will oxidize some of the bromide to bromate so you'll need to add more broma-start every so often. Unfortunately I can't tell you how often since I don't know the strength of the ozonator. I would guess that you need to refresh as if it were a new spa about once a month. Technically, the way to tell would be if the background dosing wasn't working as well so that you needed to keep turning up your bromine feeder. If you add more broma-start and you get more bromine again (not immediately, but over time as the ozonator runs), then you'll know that was it.
You need to lower your pH. That's why they recommend the scale defense to prevent calcium carbonate scale, especially in the gas heater. Add acid to lower the pH and if you aren't able to maintain the pH to keep it closer to 7.7 (or lower is OK) then you can use the scale defense as a crutch. It would be better if you just lowered your TA to around 50 ppm and then used 50 ppm Borates and maintained the pH that way, but up to you which way you want to go. By the way, I only get the saturation index you got if I use a high temperature in PoolMath -- I thought you wrote that you kept the spa cooler at around 87-92ºF or so, right?
Also, if you use MPS, it is net acidic so should lower the pH and over time the TA. So keep an eye on these. You don't want the TA to get too low or else the pH can crash down. 7 teaspoons of non-chlorine shock (43% MPS) which is enough for one person-hour with no ozonator would lower the TA by 13 ppm in 1000 gallons.
Note that with your ozonator, you should be able to roughly cut in half the recommended dosing I gave you, but again the real rule is to add whatever you need to in order to get to the 2-4 ppm bromine level for the start of your next soak.
I put the 5 oz of Broma-Start like recommended. I will make note that we might need to do that in a month. Unfortunately, I know nothing about the ozonator. I could have my husband open up the panel and look to see if there is any info., but I am doubting it. "ozone" on the display is only lit when the jets are on, so that's odd to me.
Spa Guy did say to use scale defense once a week, but I have not done that with the new fill since you didn't say to.
I used PoolMath to get that SI. The temp. was at 89 when I did those calculations.
I put in some ph down a little while ago and I will test again in a bit.
I have only been using bleach as my oxidizer after the first shock since the MPS did not bring the bromine up.
I still don't understand the borates or what they do. Are they just to help with the ph? And what exactly should I get to use? My husband was not excited to even put bleach in there and when I told him borates he gave me a look. I know nothing about them.
Spa Guy did say to use scale defense once a week, but I have not done that with the new fill since you didn't say to.
I used PoolMath to get that SI. The temp. was at 89 when I did those calculations.
I put in some ph down a little while ago and I will test again in a bit.
I have only been using bleach as my oxidizer after the first shock since the MPS did not bring the bromine up.
I still don't understand the borates or what they do. Are they just to help with the ph? And what exactly should I get to use? My husband was not excited to even put bleach in there and when I told him borates he gave me a look. I know nothing about them.
I waited 30 minutes to test the ph again and left the cover open (as told to do after putting chemicals in) and bromine dropped to 1.25. I'm now going to add bleach, give it a little time to air out and close it up until it's in the shade. Really having buyer's remorse at this point.
It was my mistake -- I had CYA in PoolMath. When I set it to 0 then I get your CSI number. Anyway, the pH of 8.0 is too high and could cause scaling in the heater.
The borates help to buffer the pH slowing down the rate of pH rise. It's especially helpful if you have a lower TA level. I don't know what to tell you. You shouldn't mix spa store advice with our advice, but you also need to keep your husband (and you) happy. If you have a low TA (say 50 ppm) with 50 ppm Borates, you probably won't need to use the Scale Defense because you should be able to keep your pH in good shape. If you don't use the Borates, then you may need to use the Scale Defense if you don't think you can stay on top of keeping your pH down.
The MPS should be able to produce bromine just as well as the bleach does. It takes a little longer, but within an hour (probably a lot less than that) it should produce bromine. It takes more as I noted -- 7 teaspoons of 43% MPS is equivalent to 3-1/2 fluid ounces of 8.25% bleach. Note that your MPS product might be less than 43% so you'd scale up some appropriately.
The borates help to buffer the pH slowing down the rate of pH rise. It's especially helpful if you have a lower TA level. I don't know what to tell you. You shouldn't mix spa store advice with our advice, but you also need to keep your husband (and you) happy. If you have a low TA (say 50 ppm) with 50 ppm Borates, you probably won't need to use the Scale Defense because you should be able to keep your pH in good shape. If you don't use the Borates, then you may need to use the Scale Defense if you don't think you can stay on top of keeping your pH down.
The MPS should be able to produce bromine just as well as the bleach does. It takes a little longer, but within an hour (probably a lot less than that) it should produce bromine. It takes more as I noted -- 7 teaspoons of 43% MPS is equivalent to 3-1/2 fluid ounces of 8.25% bleach. Note that your MPS product might be less than 43% so you'd scale up some appropriately.
Oh, I am trusting your advice over Spa Guy. I was wanting to know what you thought I should do. That is why I didn't put the scale defense in yet. I haven't even talked to them since I got on here to start following advice from here. You know 10000% more than Spa Guy knows. An his staff.....well, some of them seem to know nothing and the others all give different answers.
I got my ph down to 7.4 after 30 minutes. I put more bleach in and will let it air for a bit and cover it up.
What kind of borates do we get? I'm clueless. Sorry.
I'm good with using bleach. I don't think it can hurt anything. It's chlorine and we had it on a chlorine system before. It's not like the whole thing is full of bleach.
I got my ph down to 7.4 after 30 minutes. I put more bleach in and will let it air for a bit and cover it up.
What kind of borates do we get? I'm clueless. Sorry.
I'm good with using bleach. I don't think it can hurt anything. It's chlorine and we had it on a chlorine system before. It's not like the whole thing is full of bleach.
I also need to know how to test the borates. Is there a specific brand of test I should get? From what I have read, I need borax AND acid?
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What I have read on borates was for pools and with chlorine. Does it differ with spas and bromine?
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What I have read on borates was for pools and with chlorine. Does it differ with spas and bromine?
OK, if you are going to use just bleach then I definitely recommend you get the borates. You can get boric acid from Duda Diesel or from The Chemistry Store. For your 1000 gallons swim spa to get to 50 ppm Borates you need 59 ounces weight (3.7 pounds) of boric acid.
Not really since you'll be measuring carefully and doing this after every refill. If you wanted to measure them you can get Borates Test Strips. Note that if you were planning on dumping your water into a garden or other landscaping that you'll want to water with regular water to dilute the borates as they can be toxic to plants especially if they build up. The salt in the water also isn't good, but some plants are OK with the salt. The borates are at a level that is more toxic than the salt. For people, they don't absorb through the skin and aren't volatile and you aren't drinking volumes of spa water (it would take an awful lot to be a problem). See Are Borates Safe to Use? for more info.