Hotspot FPH, very similiar use case as Drglanton

[Belikin]

I have an almost same use scenario but am puzzled why this can't be made to work if we have the proper solenoid actuation from within Intellicenter programming. Given scenario:
Intellicenter shared equipment load center (at least the i5, I can switch it to the i8 if needed for sufficient solenoid controls)
Pool and Spa
Intelliflo pump
Fph system
The FPH system controller, when the AC system kicks on, does x things.
1. Checks the reported temperature of the pool and compares it to the desired temperature and if they don't match.
2. activates a solenoid to allow the A/C refrigerant to divert to the FPH heat exchanger.
3. kicks a relay turning off the fan on the A/C condenser coil
4. sends a 24 vac signal to the pool pump to turn on so you get flow through the heat exchanger
5. When the A/C unit turns off, the controller turns off the pool pump, returns the fan relay to normal operation (i assume by removing power from the relay), and deactivates the freon diverter solenoid.
If I remember what I read from another user who had this system and modified it heavily, the controller itself is pretty simplistic and simply compares temps and fires 24v contacts in response to achieved states.

A question i have is I've seen a few statements that the filter pump would need to be running all the time in order to get pool temps. But, this isn't how the system is run when there is no intellicenter and it's a "dumb" pool, so why is it needed in this scenario?
Couldn't we, when the fph controller sees the AC is on and begins it's logic tree, have the signal it sends out that would normally turn on the pool pump for example, actually actuate an input that takes the solar mode of the intellicenter from "off" to "on"?
So, could that 24vdc "pump on" signal ACTUALLY tell the solar circuit in the intellicenter that there is available heat on the roof as explained in JamesW other posts on this thread? Then, the programmed conditions that need to occur as part of the solar "on" macro are simply to:
1. Turn on the filter pump (it would normally do this as part of the solar operation anyway right?) so we have flow through the heat exchanger
2. when the AC turns off and the fph removes voltage or whatever it does in it's normal signal to a "dumb" filter pump, this would actually trigger an input to the intellicenter that the roof is now cold and therefore the intellicenter would turn off the filter pump

I expect I missed something or other but could this work or something similar? My main issue is that I'd like to avoid running the filter pump 24/7. I know the cost is fairly negligible but still...

 

[JamesW]

4. sends a 24 vac signal to the pool pump to turn on so you get flow through the heat exchanger

Exactly how does this work?

What do you connect the 24 VAC signal to?

Also, the solar circuit won't be activated unless the pump is on and circulating water through the system because the automation needs the water temperature to activate the solar circuit.

 

[Belikin]

Exactly how does this work?

What do you connect the 24 VAC signal to?

Also, the solar circuit won't be activated unless the pump is on and circulating water through the system because the automation needs the water temperature to activate the solar circuit.

I believe the signal would be sent to the Intellicom adapter if it was a standalone variable speed pump according to the FPH people.
So, the water temp can't be sampled without the pump running in the case of the Intellicenter?
In the basic diagram and explanation provided by the manufacturer the temp appears to be sampled without the pump running as they describe the pump being told to turn on only when the fph controller sees the AC is turned on and the pool is below the desired temp. I added a file to my first post in this thread that includes thier (very) basic diagram layout

 

[Belikin]

alternatively, and perhaps ultimatley simpler would maybe to plumb a basic single speed pool pump in parrallel with the intelliflo but it's whole purpose would be to be the pump that gets turned on by the fph when it runs through it's normal logic?
The pipes always have water in them right? would anything be hurt by the second pump coming on in response to the fph when the primary intelliflo already happens to be running? Maybe this is the simplest solution and would only cost me an extra couple hundred dollars in pump procurement cost?

 

[JamesW]

The pool water temperature can't be sampled without water flow because the temperature sensor is in the plumbing.

As soon as the water stops flowing, the temperature in the plumbing will begin to diverge from the pool water temperature.

You can use the Intellicom II controller for a stand alone pump.

It might work in conjunction with the Intellicenter, but it might also conflict.

 

[JamesW]

alternatively, and perhaps ultimatley simpler would maybe to plumb a basic single speed pool pump in parrallel with the intelliflo but it's whole purpose would be to be the pump that gets turned on by the fph when it runs through it's normal logic?
The pipes always have water in them right? would anything be hurt by the second pump coming on in response to the fph when the primary intelliflo already happens to be running? Maybe this is the simplest solution and would only cost me an extra couple hundred dollars in pump procurement cost?

I don't see how this is simpler, easier or less expensive than what I suggested in the other thread.

My solution is less than $20 for the relay and the resistors.

It also allows for an automated valve that sends water to the fph or through the bypass when the fph is off.

 

[Belikin]

I don't see how this is simpler, easier or less expensive than what I suggested in the other thread.

I suppose only in the sense that there wouldn't be a pump running unless called for by the intellicenter or the fph? Perhaps I'm missing the forest for the trees.

So, in the other thread, the pump is running 24/7 at low speed which is ~15gpm? Cost: ~20/mo when the fph kicks on and wants to run, it activates a solenoid that we've wired in with the resistors as described which is tied into the solar heater circuit of the intellicenter. The intellicenter has been at all times WANTING to run the solar circuit because we've told it that our desired temp is ~5 degrees higher than we can even achieve with the fph setup but in it's "off" state, the resisters are telling the intellicenter that the available temp on the roof is low and not worthy of use so the pump stays at ultra low speed. When the fph has kicked on and we need the flow to the heat exchanger (in my case with a 4 ton unit, i need 40-45gpm), the second resiser is brought into the circuit which tells the intellicenter that NOW there is sufficient heat on the roof and it should kick up the speed of the pump to 45gpm. if needed, it could open a valve as well but I'm not sure that opening a valve is needed?
Do i have the setup correctly?

 

[JamesW]

You have it correct.

It really doesn't cost that much to run the pump 24/7 at low speed.

The bypass is a good idea because you don't want to be pushing the water an extra 250 feet round trip to the fph when the fph is off.

 

[Belikin]

You have it correct.

It really doesn't cost that much to run the pump 24/7 at low speed.

The bypass is a good idea because you don't want to be pushing the water an extra 250 feet round trip to the fph when the fph is off.

Gotcha. I'll work to add the bypass too then, though it may require me to get an additional intellivalve. I'll have to check with my PB which kit they are getting of the intellicenter as i think the i5ps is probably what they're getting and it only comes with two intellivalves from what I can recall reading. Luckily, my equipment is just around the corner of the house from the pump pad, MAYBE 15 linear feet one way.
Also, thank you so much for your knowledge, it is invaluable.

 

[drglanton]

You have it correct.

It really doesn't cost that much to run the pump 24/7 at low speed.

The bypass is a good idea because you don't want to be pushing the water an extra 250 feet round trip to the fph when the fph is off.

I remember asking HOTSPOT Techs about a bypass; they recommended NOT to do a bypass. I thought the same thing and have a design for the bypass as my run is about 150 feet. Makes sense to me. Nevertheless, maybe you can give them a call and ascertain their rationale. I have attached the updated installation manual hot off the press for you.

 

[Belikin]

The pool water temperature can't be sampled without water flow because the temperature sensor is in the plumbing.

As soon as the water stops flowing, the temperature in the plumbing will begin to diverge from the pool water temperature.

You can use the Intellicom II controller for a stand alone pump.

It might work in conjunction with the Intellicenter, but it might also conflict.

From the installation manual of the FPH, apparently they handle this temperature divergence by running the pump for 20 seconds to bring actual pool water to the sensor before it makes the decision to use the fph or not. "The controller is designed to cycle the pump for a set time before sampling to bring fresh pool water into the pipe and measure the true temperature of the pool water."
So, we avoid this need to kick on the pump for 20 seconds and keep it runnnig if the fph is going to be used, or kicking it back off if it's not, by just letting the pump run continuously.

 

[JamesW]

If the temperature sensor is by the fph and you have a bypass, you still need the sampling period where the bypass is changed and the pump ramps up speed.

 

[drglanton]

How do the FPH controls work?
The FPH system includes an automatic programmable thermostatic controller with a user-defined temperature set point, it monitors the pool temperature and the operating state of the AC compressor.

When the compressor comes on and the pool does not need heat, nothing happens and everything works normally.

When the compressor comes on and the CONTROLLER sees that the pool needs heat, heat recovery is engaged and all of the normally wasted heat goes into the pool until such time as the pool is above the set point, or until the AC unit goes off.

At that point the system is reset automatically to normal operation.

When the system is in heat recovery mode, the outdoor condenser fan is off. The FPH system controller will turn the pool pump on when heat recovery is engaged regardless of the timer settings, it releases the pump back to control by the normal pump timer when heat recovery is disengaged.

 

[drglanton]

I saw this on another post. . . . @Fossil_bil "Ensure you install a Water FLOW cutoff valve. It does not come with the HOTSPOT FPH but the controller does have a spot for the cutoff wires. This will ensure that if it does not sense water, the controller will default to AIR COOL on the condenser. This would essentially stop any of the overheat complaints from the other post. I learned this from @oneamaruluv ..he is also here in Tampa, and we worked together to get out systems dialed in....by sharing in lessons learned."

Wondering is this will work in a bypass of the FPH adjustment.

 

[Belikin]

I saw this on another post. . . . @Fossil_bil "Ensure you install a Water FLOW cutoff valve. It does not come with the HOTSPOT FPH but the controller does have a spot for the cutoff wires. This will ensure that if it does not sense water, the controller will default to AIR COOL on the condenser. This would essentially stop any of the overheat complaints from the other post. I learned this from @oneamaruluv ..he is also here in Tampa, and we worked together to get out systems dialed in....by sharing in lessons learned."

Wondering is this will work in a bypass of the FPH adjustment.

I would THINK that in our scenario where we are planning to just leave it running at minimum rate all the time, it could still work but would depend on a complete stoppage of flow to kick in so that the lowest setting of 17gpm which still may not be enough to adequately cool the condenser wouldn't trigger it even though it's not enough to avoid damage to the condenser....

 

[JamesW]

If the controller has a place to connect a flow sensor, it would be a good choice to use one.

 

[drglanton]

 

[drglanton]

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[Belikin]

JamesW,
I've never owned a pool before so thank you for all the assistance you are providing so freely. I've thought myself into another question/concern. Am I correct that in a system such as mine, the single Variable speed Intelliflo pump will run filtration for the pool, and when selected on the intellicenter will close intellivalves to exclude the pool and provide flow for the spa, along with a blower that throws the bubbles into the spa?
If the above scenario is true, what happens if the Hotspot calls for flow for the heat exchanger because the A/C is running and the pool is below desired temperature? For that matter, will the temp sensor even be getting flow if we are in Spa mode? I would think no?
I now have a dig date from the pool builder. rains a few weeks ago put things behind and rather than start this month as planned, our promised dig date is June 12.
The PB has promised to work with me for whatever piping is needed for the hotspot but all integration and planning is on my head as it's not thier system, which is understandable.

 

[JamesW]

You can have the pool and spa share equipment where only one can use the pump at a time or you can have dual equipment that is operated independently.

It depends on how you want to operate.