High Calcium Level and Borates?

[JoyfulNoise]

I suggest everyone reread’s Richard’s post on the safety of borates. Epidemiological and toxicity studies often contain a lot of margins of safety and observable effect limits. What’s considered “safe” is often driven more by eliminating risk than actual acute effects.

I have birds, cats and other community critters constantly drinking from my pool (56ppm B) and the population seems quite healthy. I also have had kids in the pool ranging in ages from teenagers to infants and they are all very healthy kids according to their annual pediatric visits.

Parabolic - if you are seeing an indistinct endpoint, there could be interferences. Try this -

Add 5-10 drops (about 1/4 of the total drops you think you’ll need) of R-0012
Add 10 drops of R-0010
Add 3 drops ofR-0011L
Titrate with R-0012 as usual. Count ALL drops of R-0012 used.

 

[Parabolic]

I suggest everyone reread’s Richard’s post on the safety of borates. Epidemiological and toxicity studies often contain a lot of margins of safety and observable effect limits. What’s considered “safe” is often driven more by eliminating risk than actual acute effects.

I have birds, cats and other community critters constantly drinking from my pool (56ppm B) and the population seems quite healthy. I also have had kids in the pool ranging in ages from teenagers to infants and they are all very healthy kids according to their annual pediatric visits.

Parabolic - if you are seeing an indistinct endpoint, there could be interferences. Try this -

Add 5-10 drops (about 1/4 of the total drops you think you’ll need) of R-0012
Add 10 drops of R-0010
Add 3 drops ofR-0011L
Titrate with R-0012 as usual. Count ALL drops of R-0012 used.

I have read Chem Geeks posts on Borates years ago. I've been reading TFP since about 2009. Thanks. Also the guy who wrote the IPSSA manuals has good info on Borates: Robert Lowry

Have there been any reported issues or posts here where animals(specifically dogs) that have encountered health issues with pool water at 50 ppm or less Borates?

JoyfulNoise, I will try your idea, but I didn't have the endpoint issue being as apparent with the 10 drop technique as I did with the Taylor recommended 20 drop test.

Maybe I could try what your suggesting with the 20 drop test. Curious, what do you think could be the interference? It was brand new pool water.

CH 420
pH 7.6
FC 4.0
CC 0.0
Alk 110
CYA 50
TDS 4200 / Salt 3500
Temp 72

 

[tim5055]

I suggest everyone reread’s Richard’s post on the safety of borates. Epidemiological and toxicity studies often contain a lot of margins of safety and observable effect limits. What’s considered “safe” is often driven more by eliminating risk than actual acute effects.

Matt,

I have read Richards posts regarding borates, and while I admit I don't follow a lot of what he said - this part stuck with me:

It started with information in this report where the most reasonable number for the highest No Observed Adverse Effect Level (NOAEL) was 8.8 mg/kg/day (note that borates are meaured in units of Boron so this is milligrams of Boron per kilogram of body weight). The main adverse effect was seen in male dogs (at 29 mg/kg/day) some of whom had smaller testicles at higher borates levels after long-term (daily) exposure to higher borates levels. So to be safe, dogs should be trained not to drink every day from a pool using borates (one liter of 50 ppm Borate water drunk by a 22 pound dog is 5 mg/kg/day).
Richard

For most dogs it is hard to stop them from drinking from a pool and I know mine ingest a lot of water while they are swimming. One liter of water to a 100 pound dog is not a lot on a summer day. 5 mg/kg/day is too close to the "No Observed Adverse Effect Level " for my comfort when dealing with my animals.

For this reason I never added ANY borates to my pool and i would not be a happy camper if someone did without my knowledge.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

The fading-endpoint protocol works with either version of the test. The high CH version of the test (10mL water sample) will often have a sharper transition because the titrant is more concentrated relative to the sample volume. The extra R-0012 in the beginning helps to remove any trivalent metal interference that cause irreversible and permanent color changes in the dye.

 

[lightmaster]

For this reason I never added ANY borates to my pool and i would not be a happy camper if someone did without my knowledge.

To the guy considering borates for his clients, I'd like to stress this part, I and I'm sure anyone else, would be very upset if anything new was added to my pool without my knowledge, regardless of what it is and what it's side effect are. I'm sure you probably understand the the risks and rewards, but make sure the owner of the pool does to. I'm sure you understand letting your clients know, but others reading this might not.

 

[Parabolic]

To the guy considering borates for his clients, I'd like to stress this part, I and I'm sure anyone else, would be very upset if anything new was added to my pool without my knowledge, regardless of what it is and what it's side effect are. I'm sure you probably understand the the risks and rewards, but make sure the owner of the pool does to. I'm sure you understand letting your clients know, but others reading this might not.

lightmaster, I appreciate your concern. I have already informed my customers. I am also going to have them pay for it too.

For your information, in case you did not know, a lot of professionals add Borates to swimming pools throughout the United Sates, also Not being required to inform their customers, keeping them under 50 ppm as per US EPA guidelines.