Here we go again - Variable Speed Pump and GFCI breaker tripping AGAIN ??

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Class A protection is 5ma. That's the rating for the GFCI device.

The 10kva interrupt rating is how much power the breaker is able to trip against.

Your welcome for the help hopefully this will solve your problems. And thank you for the offer of dinner unfortunately I don't make it to TX very often. I live in the south east corner of CT by the road island boarder Brookfield is on the other side of the state by New York.
 
Thanks again CJ.

I did a few more things you requested. I removed both of the 20amp breakers on the left side that hid the neutral buss bar. There were 2 neutrals on one lug, so I moved them to separate for ea. But, none of these were for the pump breaker. Also, the neutral buss is about 1.5" from the back metal panel, so no issue there. I made sure that none of the neutrals, or green grounds, were toughing anything but its own separate lug. All were tightened torqued too, but did turn maybe one from 9oclock to 10oclock, so nothing was out of spec at all.

Next, all of the panel slots are taken w breakers. Is there still anyway to install a surge protector? If so, pls let me know. I will also change out the 70amp to 40amp in the main panel in the next week.

Finally, a friend of mine is going to borrow a megger and we are going to test the wiring continuity/integrity btw pump and breaker. If there is anything else I should test while we have it, pls let me know?

Thanks again - maybe I'll just have to Fed-ex you that steak :)

Regards, tstex
 
It's good you didn't find anything out of place, I really wasn't expecting you to find anything but at this point in your struggles it's good to turn over all the stones.

Fitting the surge protector might not work in your case. It needs it's own dual pole breaker for installation. You could connect it to one of the breaker already there but having more than one set of wires go to a breaker is frowned upon.

As for the megger whatever ever you do make sure you disconnect the pump from the wires before you meger. A megger will fry the electronic drive in your pump. For that matter it will also fry your automation board if you aren't careful. Hopefully your friend with the megger is well versed in how to use it.
 
Well, the Megger did its job - the wiring's resistance all tested perfectly..2000ohms across the board. All the insulation was fine too. So it has to be the pump and its variable speed settings. on the previous pump, it tripped each breaker no matter which one the pump was connected. T

I do not know what to do at this point. Maybe buy and install the Siemens QF220A breaker ??
 
tstex said:
Therefore, if you have a Variable Speed pump, regardless of the brand, and your breakers have never tripped [or 1-2 times per year over 3+ yrs] I would like to know:

1). What are your settings:
a) what times do you run it?
b) how long do you run it?
c) what are the RPM settings for each respective times?

2). What type of breakers do you have?
a) how long have you had them?
b) have they ever tripped due to your VSP?
c) if yes to b), are there any trends you can identify?

Thank you very much and I would be MOST indebted to anyone that can help me and my family solve this problem.

Regards, tstex
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Sorry to hear about the electrical issues you're having with. I know how it feels.
Not sure if I can help because my Tristar SP3202VS is only 6 weeks old and so far, no hiccups whatsoever. It replaces the 17 yrs old single speed that just won't die.
Current settings:
8:00 am - 11:00 am = 1400 rpm @ 121 watts
11:00 am - 11:30 am = 3000 rpm @ 978 watts
11:30 am - 1:00 pm = 1725 rpm @ 204 watts
6:00 pm - 9:00 pm = 1400 rpm @ 121 watts

Circuit Breakers:
I don't have the luxury of the automation system but I am absolutely happy with just the basic power distribution panel. Don't know much about electrical either, hence the pics!
From Main Pnl:
20170706_102238_main_zpsfp39lto6.jpg


Sub-Pnl:
1 & 4 = 2HP single speed @ 3450 rpm Spa jet via DPST toggle switch
2 & 3 = Tristar SP3202VS + PS3000 SPD + (H400 Heater & SWCG) via T101 timer
5 = Pool & Spa Lights + GFCI Receptacle tied to another Convenience outlet + Sunsetter motorized awning + patio lights.
The CO is commonly use for Miter saw and other power tools. I can switch to full load all at once, no tripping. I occasionally play with the VS speed buttons without regards and it is behaving well.
20170706_102118_sub_zpsziksywbi.jpg
 
Unfortunately by megegring the wires to the pump the only thing you ruled out is the wire ( for a megger 2k ohms is pretty low normally are you sure you got that number right? what voltage was the megger running at? ). You still have the VFD drive on the pump, the actual pump motor, and the automation panel controlling everything. They all could trip the GFCI due to current leakage to ground, or by generating electrical feedback thru the motor drive as it changes speeds.

As best as anyone can tell the Siemens breakers are the best solution to the problem as the design of their GFCI circuit is less prone to these issues.
 
Meadow - It looks like you are using non GFCI breakers for your pool pump, which is not up to code per NEC. That's why your pump has not tripped the breaker.''

I think since you had an older pool pump [17 yrs old] and it was not subject to the 2008 NEC code of GFCI protection. However, not sure of you're grandfathered in w the new Variable Speed Pump. You might want to check into this, that is, if I am not seeing the GFCI button on your breakers and they are really there...

thanks, tstex
 
Thanks again CJ...I'm ordering one of the Siemens breakers and will install it. Hopefully this will help to either solve the problem or reduce the frequencies.

RE the Megger, I did not use it and had someone else perform the tests. We basically just tested the wiring, and of course, disconnected everything to do the tests. W the pump stull under warranty, I did not want to test anything on the pump. we just tested the wiring bc it's the only thing btw the pump and breakers that has not been replaced. I'll see about getting your questions answered too. We did it yesterday afternoon and it was about 98 degrees in the sun w little breeze - very hot !!!

ANd yes, the panel/automation is another potential source as well and could not be tested.
 

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tstex said:
Meadow - It looks like you are using non GFCI breakers for your pool pump, which is not up to code per NEC. That's why your pump has not tripped the breaker.''

I think since you had an older pool pump [17 yrs old] and it was not subject to the 2008 NEC code of GFCI protection. However, not sure of you're grandfathered in w the new Variable Speed Pump. You might want to check into this, that is, if I am not seeing the GFCI button on your breakers and they are really there...

thanks, tstex
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Well the breaker actually tripped few months back when the pump was halfway submerged in water brought by heavy rain. Evidently, our landscape drain is clogged.

But good to know, thanks! I will certainly look into that in due course. Right now, I have no commitments in fixing something that ain't broken.
The pool was built in early 2000 and I inherited the house last year. I disconnected the old pump from the same circuit breaker and slapped in the VS in place. A couple weeks later, an inspector from our local electric service provider came over and inspected the motor installation in lieu of the rebates. No mention about electrical codes and/or noticeable anomaly in the pool system. Then last week, I was blessed with $200 check in the mail box :party:
 
"Well the breaker actually tripped few months back when the pump was halfway submerged in water brought by heavy rain. Evidently, our landscape drain is clogged"

Wow !!! Good thing you were not near the equipment or standing in the water when that took place. I'd prioritize the drain cleaning. Make sure your rubber boots have very thick soles :)

I wish I could run maybe 10Ma GFCI breakers instead of 5ma...You have no GFCI breakers so be careful around the equipment pad, esp when it rains...I assuming that the pump is grounded w the bare copper wire?? Good deal on the $200 check...to install the GFCI breakers, you might even need a new panel, so it could be a time consuming project...
 
Bare copper wire around a pool is for bonding not grounding.

The reason your limit is 5ma is because 10ma is enough to cause severe pain and possible nerve damage to a human. Thats for the average adult. Children can be harmed more easily and with less current. As little as 100ma is enough to stop your heart and kill an adult. That can be at any voltage. Voltage hurts and current kills.

For meadow short of changing his sub panel your best best for adding GFCI is to replace the breaker in your main panel with a GFCI breaker.
 
CJadamec said:
Unfortunately by megegring the wires to the pump the only thing you ruled out is the wire ( for a megger 2k ohms is pretty low normally are you sure you got that number right? what voltage was the megger running at? ). You still have the VFD drive on the pump, the actual pump motor, and the automation panel controlling everything. They all could trip the GFCI due to current leakage to ground, or by generating electrical feedback thru the motor drive as it changes speeds.

As best as anyone can tell the Siemens breakers are the best solution to the problem as the design of their GFCI circuit is less prone to these issues.
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The megger was set at 500volts to test the wiring/insulation...based on that setting, the 2000 ohms yielded a good result for the conductors, so I was told...thanks
 
tstex said:
The megger was set at 500volts to test the wiring/insulation...based on that setting, the 2000 ohms yielded a good result for the conductors, so I was told...thanks
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If your reading was 2,000 ohms at 500 volts that would be .25 amps, a massive fail. I suspect the reading was really 2,000 K ohms or 2 Meg ohms, for a leakage of .25 mA.
 
***UPDATE***

Ok, the breaker tripped again Monday at 10:38AM, in the 2nd runtime as the previous time. What I documented was that it had rain Sunday night.

When the breaker tripped in mid-late June at 9:45am, it too had rained the night before

Finally, when I went back over the emails to the Hayward Rep on the first trip since the pump had been replaced, it was on May 29, the breaker tripped on May 30. I went back to the weather logs and we have received 1.76 inches of rain on May 29. But, there is one diff caveat. It did not trip in the second run time [9am-2pm] during automation, but sometime close to 7pm, which I manually turned on the pump from the remote. It tripped about 2-3 minutes later per my notes. But. based on the weather logs, it was cloudy all day on the 30, w sun peaking a few times.

So, the only other correlation to the breaker tripping is that it did rain the day before, but there were other days that it did rain but did not trip. Also, in Feb, we had 8.5" of rain, 4" in one day. But, the temperature in Feb were not near as hot as the 90's in May, June and July.

As a result, I'm going to hose down the pump and the conduit/flex line connection to emulate rain [of course, the breaker will be turned off]. I will do this in the evening after it cools, then see what happens the next day. If it does trip, then there has to be something with the sun in the early part of the morning when it hits the pad w moisture that causing something. I am not sure if I can emulate a high humidity factor as w a real rain, but I can soak the pump. As suggested, I have ordered the Siemens breaker to install this and see if this helps under all the previous circumstances.

One last note, I did change the speed run times by reducing the amt of time and reduced the RPM's as well. I did this before it just recently tripped, so it cannot be just the old run times that I did before.

If this info changes anyone's opinion on potential issues, or if it sounds like I am trying to make a correlation fit, pls let me know. But, w all three breaker trips after the replacement of the new pump & breaker in mid-January 2017, all 3 trips are associated w rain the day/night previously.

Thanks,
tstex
 
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