HELP: New Plaster Start-Up Questions

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chubbs

Bronze Supporter
Sep 7, 2020
42
Bay Area, CA
Hello TFP,
First time poster and pool owner here. Just bought a house with a pool and ended up finding out that there was quite a bit of delamination going on under the surface so we opted to have it refinished. Definitely was not something we wanted to do right away but now that it's done we are very happy with the results. The finish we chose was Stonescapes Mini Pebble Aqua Blue. My builder does not handle any part of the start up and we are now on day 3 since it's been filled and I have been trying to follow these instructions ( National Plasters Council | NPC | Pool Finishes | NPTpool.com ) but am starting to doubt myself. We think the pool is somewhere between 15k-20k gallons. Here are my current numbers from the pool store this morning:

FC: 0.13
TC: 0.13
pH: 7.6
TA: 158
CH: 136
CYA: 5
Iron: 0.1
Copper: 0.3
Phosphates: 684
TDS: 200

Now the very first thing I did on day one when the equipment was first started up was add a sequestering agent recommended by the employee at the pool store. This was the product ( Leslie's Scale & Stain Remover, 1/2 Gallon ). I added the entire bottle pouring it slowly around the entire pool as I was directed.

I also started with a TA of 188. Since then, I have been gradually adding muriatic acid to try and get the total alkalinity down to 80ppm as stated in the start up procedure. I have added 4 gallons of acid over the past several days while keeping an eye on the pH making sure it did not get too low and stayed at or above 7.2. I'm coming up on day 4 tomorrow and am only down to 158 as stated in the numbers above. As of early this afternoon I had already added 1 gallon of acid but my Taylor K-2006 kit still has the TA reading around 160 as of an hour ago.

The pump has been running 24 hours a day since filling and I have not added any other chemicals yet since I'm not past step 2 on the start up procedure (getting the TA down to 80ppm). However this is not happening as quickly or easily as it seems on the directions so I'm questioning what I should do next. Should I continue on this same path or am I not understanding and doing something completely wrong? Any help or direction would be greatly appreciated as I am a total newbie when it comes to anything pool related but do know that the start up for the new finish is critical and am starting to feel quite overwhelmed and uneasy about it. Thanks in advance.
 
Hi welcome to TFP. What you are doing is basically the right things. So be confident.
It is good that you are following the general guidelines as you found on the NPC site. I am surprised that your PB did not provide you some guidelines. It is very important to brush multiple times a day to remove the fine plaster powder. You do not indicate if you have a SWG, do not start that for 30 days if you do. Also, do not run your cleaner or heater.

First thing you need to address is the chlorine and stabilizer levels. I would initially aim to get your CYA level up to 30- retest to see where your at and then maybe move it higher like to 50 - do this is in stages as you do not want to overshoot the CYA level. To increase the CYA - use the sock method to add CYA and test often. Second is to get the FC levels up. See the Chlorine/CYA chart for the appropriate levels. Use Liquid Chlorine to raise your FC.
Then confirm your pH levels, if it is 7.6 - great but if you continue to add MA to lower your TA then your pH may drop so again do it in small stages. Do you have a spill over spa? That may help to aerate the water to move pH up as you add MA.
 
Hi HermanTX, thanks for the reply. I have been brushing the pool and spa multiple times a day, I should have mentioned that in the initial post. I do not have a SWG, although I would like to add one down the road. The sweeper (Polaris 360) is not hooked up right now, I was planning on keeping it shelved for the next 2-4 weeks as I've seen varying info on this and want to be on the safe side. Same for the heater.

I think I do have what would be considered a spill over spa but the ledge is just barely an inch or two higher than the pool water level so there is not really much of a waterfall effect.

So what I'm gathering is that getting the TA down is a gradual process and safe to assume this is not practical to achieve in the first few days after filling? I don't know why but by the NPC instructions it seemed to me I had to get them in range in that specific order before moving on to the next one. Am I just misunderstanding this or is it safe to be adding different chemicals to adjust levels simultaneously?

So I can change my focus to begin adding the CYA and the Chlorine if those are more important now than the others. Is there a general schedule or rules I should be following when adding these? Can I add these at the same time? Sorry I am totally new to all this and have not done it before so I'm still trying to get a basic understanding of the whole process.
 
Also forgot to ask, should I be concerned with the high copper level in the pool store test results? My initial test after filling started at 0.1 but somehow it has risen to 0.3 the last two days. Should I add another start up dose of the sequestering agent I linked in the first post or is there something else out there that may serve me better?
 
Welcome to the forum!
With a fresh fill of water, unless you have added copper based products, your copper level should be essentially zero.
Please post and use your Taylor K2006 test data. Do not get your pool water tested at a pool store. More often than not, the results are inaccurate and will lead you astray in your pool chemistry maintenance.
I suggest you read ABC's of Pool Water Chemistry.
 
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Thanks for the response mknauss. As of last night my results from the Taylor kit were:
ph: 7.2
TA: 160
CH: 130

I had not gone any further than that because I had not added any chlorine or CYA yet. I was just trying to follow the npc procedure as closely and best as I could I also did not have a way to test for metals so felt like my best option was to take it in to the store. I will test it again this evening when I get home from work and post the latest number.

As far as the copper goes I have not added any products other than the sequestering agent linked in the first post and the 4 gallons of MA.

I guess I’m just a little confused on how I should continue to proceed from here based on how I interpreted their procedure.
 
Ok, Marty beat me to it. Get the chlorine in asap. And keep your FC up. The CYA is next. You absolutely do not want an algae bloom right now, and only the chlorine is going to keep that at bay. The CYA helps the chlorine, but ya gotta have the chlorine in there now while the CYA catches up. And until it does, you might need to dose chlorine more often. Test it often and maintain the FC. As the CYA takes effect, you'll be able to dose the chlorine less often (but still need to test and make sure the FC is OK).

Just to be clear: do not put anything else into your pool that the pool store sold you. Don't bother going to them for tests. Don't let them talk you into anything else. Trust yourself and your K2006. The pool store will have you dumping in all sorts of crud if you let them. All you need right now is chlorine, CYA and muriatic acid (not dry acid). The large acid appetite is normal for a brand new finish. If you test the pH often and keep it in check then whatever acid is used is what it needs right now.

For example, if you linked the right product, that was not a sequestering agent (at least if wasn't describe as one). That was an organic polymer stain and scale remover (whatever that is), that you definitely didn't need right now (or ever), because you don't have any scale or stains! I used a sequestering agent in my newly finished pool, at the plasterer's recommendation. I think it was supposed to snatch up impurities in the water, maybe the loose plaster dust? Not sure. But that is not what you just poured in. We'll hope it doesn't do any harm, but that is typical of pool store practice: to sell you things you don't need, and/or are outright bad for your pool, and then sell you more stuff later to fix the problems the first batch of junk caused. I know that'll sound like a wild exaggeration, unfortunately, it is not.

Trust yourself, trust TFP, and you'll be good.

Marty (mknauss) helped me with my new finish, especially with my TA concerns. He's my hero. So you are in good hands now. Just follow his advice. Be sure to ask if you don't understand anything.

Congrat's on the new house and pool, and welcome to TFP. We're glad you found us!
 
chubbs said:
I think I do have what would be considered a spill over spa but the ledge is just barely an inch or two higher than the pool water level so there is not really much of a waterfall effect.
Click to expand...
This spillover is fine - this will create some aeration as you are running your pump 24hrs now. This will help pH to rise as and when you need to add MA. Both @mknauss & @Dirk have given advice on FC and CYA so I think you are all set. Continue to test using your own test kit and continue to brush daily or multiple times daily to pick up all the plaster dust.
If you are using the Pool Math app then it will calculate your CSI which is good to keep track of daily as you continue to test your pool for FC, CYA, pH, TA and CH. Come back to the forum with any additional questions or concerns. Everyone is here to help you.
 
chubbs, sounds like you and I are like-minded. Because I knew this initial "break-in" period was the most critical, I did everything better/more than I probably had to. Brushed more, tested more, more careful with levels, etc. No vac for months. No salt for months. Etc. I didn't even swim in it for months. My finish was "born" just after pool season, so I wasn't in a hurry to get it ready for anything. So I took my time and great care (and relied on TFP) to do the best job I could. I'll let you know in 20 or 30 years how that worked out! :)
 

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Hey guys, thanks for all the help and input. I really appreciate it. I retested the water with my K2006 when I got home from work and here are my new numbers:
pH: 7.6
TA: 170
CH: 160

I went ahead and added the chlorine as you guys suggested. I used the pool math app to calculate the amount of 46oz. As I stated in the OP I'm not sure of the exact size of the pool (15-20k I think is the range) so I went with a middle of the road number of 18k gal, with 10% liquid chlorine to get it to 2.0ppm. I figure I can recheck it tomorrow morning and see where it ends up to help get an idea of the size and adjust from there. Is there any limit to the amount of any chemical that can be added in a single dose?

I'm planning on picking up some CYA tomorrow morning so I can begin to add that as well. Are all these products the same? Is there anything specific I should be looking out for or stay away from?

Dirk, yes the linked product was correct. I was skeptical myself and questioned this at the store but was told multiple times this was the one that I wanted to use. I even went as far to call back the next day to double check before adding and was told the same thing by a second employee at the store. Needless to say, after hearing from you guys I definitely won't be taking their advice for anything again. I just wished I had thought to post here and ask for help sooner. And yes, I may be overdoing it a little, worrying or over analyzing, but with the amount we spent on getting it refinished, I'd be sick to my stomach if my lack of knowledge or experience was the cause of messing it up.
 
Don't worry about over analyzing. They would have kicked me off this forum long ago for that! ;)

Don't fret the mis-call on the agent (or non-agent). It might have some sequestering properties, for all we know, but it certainly isn't described as having any. It's a lot of water, it'd take more than a jug of whatever that was to be of any real consequence.

Add all the chlorine at once, no problem. Some say limit the amount of MA at once. The trick at this stage of the finish is to test and dose often enough to eliminate the need to dose large amounts of anything. Not so much for the "all at once" issue, but more so that the levels never get too far out of range. Don't let your FC get anywhere near the minimum amount, use the low end of the target range as your "false bottom" to build in a safety margin of FC. For pH, dose often enough so it never gets too far away from the target. That might be once a day, or more, or less, depending on how thirsty the finish is just now. If you need a half gallon or more each dose, you're not dosing often enough. I rarely have to dose more than 2 cups of MA at a time. Usually quite a bit less.

Regarding the size of the pool, you can fine tune the number just as you said, but don't wait overnight. After the sun goes down, and with pump running for at least a half hour, test and dose to your target amount. Keep the pump going. Test again in 30-60 minutes (enough for the chlorine to mix in, but not enough to lose any to outside forces). If you get the expected result based on Pool Math, your water volume guess is good. If not, you adjust the volume number for next time and try again tomorrow. Repeat as needed until you're getting repeatable results, and that's your volume. You can do the same, and double-check the chlorine MO, using MA for pH. Just don't do the two during the same hour. If there are organics in the water, or the plaster is just using up the acid, you won't get a perfect result, but eventually, if repeated enough, you'll get your number.
 
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CYA is called stabilizer or conditioner. Dry granules is what you are looking for. No additives. You might find it at Home Depot or this time of year you might have to go to a pool store. For the future, you can get it on Amazon from a company called Puritech.

Be sure to follow the sock method to add the CYA. With new plaster I would suggest adding about 2 lbs at a time by placing it in a thin sock or knee high and put that in the skimmer with the pump running.

No real limits on adding chemicals. Use Poolmath. Be sure to slowly pour liquid chemicals at the return stream with pump running.
www.troublefreepool.com

Recommended Pool Chemicals

Which should I buy? TFP's recommended pool chemicals are cheap, easy, and won't unbalance your pool water.
www.troublefreepool.com www.troublefreepool.com
Recommended Levels
 
Don't be tempted to use liquid stabilizer. I have a tale of woe about doing that. Short version: nasty stain on brand new pebble. It's still there three years later... Use the granules as Marty advises. I, too, use the sock in the skimmer for CYA. I like that method.
 
Either of those are fine. Target 30 ppm CYA for this time of year. You will want to raise that come spring. That level will take right at 5 lbs.
 
Both products list 100% Cyanuric Acid, so that's the stuff. They don't list any other ingredients, so I'd say you're good. Or stick with Marty's original recommendation if you're at all concerned.

Ope, Marty's too fast for me!
 
I'd order the Puritech but it would not arrive until late next week. Will definitely go that route next time though. I'll swing by Home Depot tomorrow to pick some up and follow your guy's instructions. I'll check back in tomorrow or Monday afternoon with some numbers and let you guys know how it's going and probably have some more questions haha. Thanks again for all the help.
 
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Ok so I had a really busy last few days but finally have some time to jump back on here with an update. I've been testing the water daily and adding liquid chlorine and muriatic acid based on the pool math app to bring the pH down to 7.2 and the FC to right around 3ppm. I also added the five pounds of Cyanuric Acid using the sock in the skimmer method. Here were today's numbers before calculating and adding the chemicals:
FC: 2.6
pH: 7.5
TA: 150
CH: 160
CYA: ~30
Then 86 oz of acid and 14oz of liquid chlorine.

Now for all the questions...

TA does seem to be declining although not very quickly. Do I just keep repeating my current daily ritual until I get down into the target range?

On the startup instructions it also highlights testing for carbonate alkalinity. Is this the same thing?

How often should I be testing these numbers? I assume chlorine and pH should be tested daily right now but what about the others?

Should I worry about calcium hardness yet or am I OK where I'm currently at?

This is day 8 since the fill that my pump has been running for 24hrs. Should I cut this back at this point?

I have not seen an increase in pressure at all in my new 420sqft cartridge filter since start up. Is this normal? I was under the impression it may go up with all of the plaster dust.

Anything else I need to do that I'm missing here?
 
Maintain your pH in the 7's and the TA will lower naturally. I would let the pH rise some to 7.8 or 8 prior to adjusting to 7.6 or so. The lower CH lends yourself to having a higher pH and TA for now. Your fill water will eventually raise your CH so not really sure you want to raise your CH with chemicals.

Poolmath handles the alkalinity adjustment. No need for you to be concerned with it.

If you are no longer getting any plaster dust when brushing, you can reduce your pump run time. Do you have a VS pump?

Clean the filters when you see a 25% rise in filter pressure. Testing - FC and pH are daily. TA weekly. CH and CYA monthly.
 

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