Help, my pool tiles keep coming Off!

[crusemm]

Over the last few seasons I've lost a few tiles off of my pool wall, and this year I intended to do the repairs and re-attach the tiles. However, weather and other factors have delayed the repairs and now I'm wondering if i have a worse problem than I thought. The original tile loss was primarily on the wall separating the spa from the pool. This season I've started losing them in other places around the pool. I have 2 rows of 6 inch square tile, and it's only the top row that I'm losing. When some of the tiles come off, they take big chunks of something (mortar maybe?) off with them, others come off clean. There also appears to be a large crack behind some of the tiles, not sure if this a cause, effect or other issue.
I have purchased the Eazy Patch mortar and grout, but have not started repairs yet. I am usually pretty handy, and I am willing to attempt most repairs but now I'm wondering if this is beyond what I can do.

Any advice or help would be greatly appreciated

P.S. The attached pictures are all of the same area. there are other areas that are missing tiles that do not have the crack in it. Also, it's pretty randomly distributed around the pool, not just in one area.

 

[PoolGate]

How long ago was the pool put in? It looks like incorrect surface prep and/or poor tile laying technique. I'd see if you can make it through this season and then plan on having the entire water line tiled removed and new tile put in.

 

[anthonypool89]

Possible bond beam issues? As PoolGate mentioned, knowing how old the pool is would be helpful. Prior to having our pool renovated, I had tiles falling out for years - used to take some epoxy and just stick 'em back in best I could. Hardest part - like most caulking jobs, etc. - is trying to get a nice clean edge when the epoxy comes out along the sides of the tile. For those deeper depressions - I'd probably try an easy-patch such as you already bought. How does the rest of the pool look? Any plaster area coming off around the sides or bottom? I redid my pool after 25 years of the original plaster - actually waited too long, at least aethestically speaking. The guy who renovated mine said that when you take a small hammer and knock on the tiles gently, if there's a real hollow sound, there are some issues. Same for taking the hammer and just sort of dragging it along the coping. If, again, a sort of hollow sound - probably bond beam separation or other problem. This is just what I'm told at any rate. Short of looking at major work, you have nothing to lose by repairing it. It'll either hold or not. I used to dread taking my cover off and finding how many tiles had fallen off during the winter. Expansion and contraction, of course, can loosen or even crack the tiles.

 

[crusemm]

Pool was put in mid 90's, by a previous owner. Pool was re-plastered approx 5 years ago. What is a "Bond Beam Issue" and how is it dealt with? Also, could that be damaged by the pool freezing over this past winter?

 

[PoolGate]

Pool was put in mid 90's, by a previous owner. Pool was re-plastered approx 5 years ago. What is a "Bond Beam Issue" and how is it dealt with? Also, could that be damaged by the pool freezing over this past winter?

Pools are usually drained below the tile line in areas where it freezes. Was yours? Freezing on the tile line can cause tiles to pop off. Also - I would assume when the pool was replastered 5 years ago that the water line tile was also replaced. Yes?

 

[crusemm]

Pools are usually drained below the tile line in areas where it freezes. Was yours?

Texas, so I wasn't expecting the pool to freeze over. Pool was not drained below tile line. The odd thing is that in early May, when I decided to do the tile repair, I only had about 15-20 tiles to repair. As it has warmed up, that number is increasing to about 45 now.

I would assume when the pool was replastered 5 years ago that the water line tile was also replaced. Yes?

No, re-plaster went up to the tile line.

The guy who renovated mine said that when you take a small hammer and knock on the tiles gently, if there's a real hollow sound, there are some issues. Same for taking the hammer and just sort of dragging it along the coping. If, again, a sort of hollow sound - probably bond beam separation or other problem. This is just what I'm told at any rate.

This had been my plan to find all of the loose tiles before I started the repair. But I think my defective area is "growing"

 

[PoolGate]

You might try to see if your insurance would pay for the tile-line repair if it can be shown that is was freeze damage. I would plan on replacing all of the tile-line tiles in any case.

 

[anthonypool89]

No, re-plaster went up to the tile line.

So you kept the existing tile and coping, and just had the shell replastered....

What is a "Bond Beam Issue" and how is it dealt with?

Pool Bond Beam Repair | In The Swim

In the Swim

intheswim.com

Also, could that be damaged by the pool freezing over this past winter?

Sure...I'd think so. I try to keep my water level below the tile line during the winter so as to prevent damage. Of course, if the pool freezes and I was unable to keep the level down below the tiles, then it's a matter of hoping for the best. Such was the case this past winter with so much ice and snow on the pool for months. The water level was pushed way up. Luckily it seemed like it didn't really freeze that hard though. There is often a knife edge between the frozen pool water and the shell (or tiles). I just hate to take chances so use a pump to keep the water level below the tiles and also the skimmer empty. That way, it's easy to tell if the drain line is effectively air locked. If the skimmer is always full of water during the winter, much greater chance that it can start to seep down past the plug (in my case - double plug - one where the skimmer line t's off towards the pump and the other plug is down inside the pipe that goes down to the drain.

 

[crusemm]

Got the answer back from insurance, they're not going to cover it. So looks Like IO get to learn how to tile, Yay . Me and EZ Patch are going to be friends. Anybody that has any good advice on how to do this, I'm open to anyu and all help.

 

[ajw22]

The horizontal cracks in the pic below shows that the root cause of your tiles popping off is lack of a proper expansion joint causing movement of your deck to crack your bond beam. Your tiles will continue to pop off until you seperate your deck structure from your pool structure and stabilize your bond beam where it has cracked.

Read Expansion Joints and Coping - Further Reading

I can't tell exactly what is happening from the pics you have posted. Post pics showing your deck to coping interface.

Properly installed tiles pop off when the grout joints get cracks that allow water to get behind them. The water erodes the thinset over time loosening the tiles. The grout may crack due to movement of the pool. Your freeze did not help with the water behind the tiles freezing and further loosening them.

The pool and the deck need to be separate structures that can move independently. The expansion joint allows the independent movement. Otherwise the deck puts pressure on the pool structure and bond beam and causes the cracks you see. Horizontal cracking behind the tiles is the tell that the problem is more than a tile installation problem. And you can see how the top of the crack has moved out and pushed the tile off the wall.

Address your root cause issue or your tiles will continuously be falling off and the ground movement will further crack your pool structure..

 

[crusemm]

I'll post pictures when I get home, but I do have separation between the deck and the pool. I suspect that water got in under the deck-o-seal and froze, which caused the movement and the separation. If that's the case, how do I repair this? remove old thinset, use mortar to re level, then apply thinset and tile? Or is there a something else I have to do to repair this?

 

[crusemm]

This very blurry (sorry) picture shows the deck-o-seal in place between the pool deck (top) and the coping (bottom) which is natural stone.

 

[ajw22]

Water getting under the deck-o-seal and freezing does not explain the horizontal cracks behind the tiles. They are significant.

 

[ajw22]

This very blurry (sorry) picture shows the deck-o-seal in place between the pool deck (top) and the coping (bottom) which is natural stone.

The deck-o-seal maybe in place on the surface but that does not mean you have an operational expansion joint with proper isolation between your deck and pool structures. I suspect when pouring your deck the expansion joint was partially filled in and compromised.

 

[crusemm]

We've lived in this house for 10 years. Had some tiles come off by the spa and be reapplied about 6ish years ago. Had the same tiles come off last year. This year after the freeze, now I have these tiles coming off here and other places. I'm not saying your wrong, but I'm just amazed that it took 10 years for this to be a problem. Some of the tiles on the other side of the pool that are coming off don't have a pool deck on the other side (although there may not be a crack on that side). And back to my question, how do I fix this? Tear out the existing pool deck? or is there some other way to ensure that I have adequate separation?

 

[ajw22]

Yup, slow and steady movement of the ground and pressure on the pool structre over 10 years eventually causes the horizontal cracks to relieve the pressure. It takes a lot of force to crack concrete like that.

First things I would do is remove the deck-o-sel and dig down the expansion joint and make sure the ground is isolated from the pool with a gap. The gap should get filled in with foam backer rod so that dirt does not fill the gap and compromise the expansion joint.

Then you need to remove the tiles and find all the cracks in the pool structure and fill the cracks with hydraulic cement.

Once you have a smooth vertical base you can retile.

 

[crusemm]

Thank you, that I think I can do. When refilling with Hydraulic cement, do i heve to grind out the crack? or is there a product that i can "squeeze" into that space?

 

[crusemm]

Just a thought, when I had the deck seal replaced several years ago, the guy that did the work used sand to bring he space up to level? I think that's the right way to put it. Could the sand being in there have caused the cracking? From some videos I saw, it looks like either sand or foam is ok.

 

[ajw22]

Thank you, that I think I can do. When refilling with Hydraulic cement, do i heve to grind out the crack? or is there a product that i can "squeeze" into that space?

It is hard to say more without physically examining the cracking areas.

Does the horizontal crack go completely through the bond beam? If so you may need to remove the coping stones, remove the cracked layer, epoxy some rebar into the top of the bond beam, and pour new concrete on top to structurally connect the coping with the bond beam. Then reinstall the coping stones.

You see some loose areas which should be chipped out. Overall that vertical surface is not stable as is to simply glue tile back on.

You may want to consult with a local mason.

 

[ajw22]

Just a thought, when I had the deck seal replaced several years ago, the guy that did the work used sand to bring he space up to level? I think that's the right way to put it. Could the sand being in there have caused the cracking? From some videos I saw, it looks like either sand or foam is ok.

I would never use sand. Sand is not compressible like foam and can pack down to a hard surface. Water can carry dirt to mix in with the sand and compromise what should be a gap between the structures.