Help me simplify my piping diagram. not sure if its possible.

[Dawagonbus]

I'll preface to say I have another thread in this forum from a week ago with an actual picture of my pad that has been labeled by a forum heavy hitter...thank you ajw22! I also completed a very accurate diagram of the piping and I'm looking for some ideas on what I can do to simplify the craziness of the current set up. I plan on installing a Pentair Quad 100 DE filter(about 22 in wide), a Hayward Ecostar VSP and a new propane Heater(next Fall) but need to make room now. I also want to put in a new concrete pad apprx 86 x 30.
On the diagram if the piping line goes dotted then it is a section that has gone underground. Between the diagram and ajw22's labeled pic I'm hoping to get some ideas to toss around. No suggestions are too small or big at this point. Thanks!!

 

[Dirk]

Sorry, the graph paper lines have me turned around, but I think you have at least some of it wrong. It goes:

pool --> pump --> filter --> check valve --> solar --> check valve --> heater --> swg --> pool

You use two actuated three-ways to substitute spa for pool. You use a solar-drain-down three-way to bypass the solar. That solar loop returns to the main line between the second check valve and the heater.

You didn't draw the pad. No pipes should be under it or come up through it.

Some use a check valve as part of the heater bypass so that you can actually disconnect the heater for repair and still run the rest of the system.

Here's something to model after:



The SWG would be after the heater. The three-way spa valve would be after that. There'd be a three-way spa valve on the suction side, too.

Here's an alternate heater bypass, using a three-way instead of a two-way, along with a check valve. In bypass mode you could run the pump with the heater completely disconnected:

 

[Dawagonbus]

Appreciate the reply Dirk. So my diagram is what I currently have as a set up.... My diagram is a lot, I get it, but thats b/c there is a lot going on around the pad as you can see from the partial pics below. When the previous owner added Solar and the SWG about 15 yrs ago he had those elements shoehorned in so the whole pad wouldn't have to be redone. I'm just trying to see if there is a way to make the plumbing more efficient.


Different angle.... and you can see that I've done some digging as I didn't have a good idea what was under ground.



Birds eye view (the pvc on the wall holds an umbrella)

 

[Dirk]

OK, I actually see it now. You can only chlorinate your pool. And you can only heat your spa with gas. You can heat either with solar.

So the first step is to determine if you want to be able to heat both your pool and spa with gas, or just the spa.

And if you want to chlorinate both your pool and spa with the SWG, or just the pool.

There is no penalty for plumbing to be able to do both. You'd be able to choose one or the other or both (for both heating and SWG).

You should definitely be able to heat pool and spa with solar.

Then decide if you want to automate it all.

It looks like mostly 1.5" pipe. You can go to 2" on the pad, and still reuse some of the valves by gluing to the outside of the ports. Or you can replace valves. Not sure there would be significant improvement in flow, since you go back to 1.5" underground, but there may be some advantage. The new equipment will likely be 2"

Anywho, the point was: first determine what you want your system to be able to do (functionality), and how you want to control it. The plumbing follows the plan. As does the purchase list.

 

[Dawagonbus]

OK, I actually see it now. You can only chlorinate your pool. And you can only heat your spa with gas. You can heat either with solar.

Thats Correct on all three points

So the first step is to determine if you want to be able to heat both your pool and spa with gas, or just the spa.

Spa only with propane. The spa is a spillover to the pool, just an fyi.

And if you want to chlorinate both your pool and spa with the SWG, or just the pool.

I'm good with Chlorinating just the pool. when we use the spa it's never for very long(2-3 hrs max) and then I go back to spillover mode which eventually replaces the spa water.

You should definitely be able to heat pool and spa with solar.

Yes and it works great!

Then decide if you want to automate it all.

No automation except for the Solar panels,

It looks like mostly 1.5" pipe. You can go to 2" on the pad, and still reuse some of the valves by gluing to the outside of the ports. Or you can replace valves. Not sure there would be significant improvement in flow, since you go back to 1.5" underground, but there may be some advantage. The new equipment will likely be 2"

i'll be going with 2" on the pad all around but your right, the return to the pool is 1.5". The Spa jets is 2" the Blower line is 2" and the Spa bypass is 1.5". New 2" valves where needed.

Suction lines from skimmer and spa drain is 2"

 

[Dirk]

So it doesn't sound like you need or want to change anything... Fit the new gear in, replace any ball or gate valves, make room by moving pipes as needed, but use the same schematic. Not sure there's anything to simplify, just clean it up...

 

[Dawagonbus]

The reason I posted to the forum is that I don't know what I don't know. My initial thoughts were to do just as you said; fit in the new equipment and replace what ever plumbing and fittings I have to and call it good. But then I started reading up more on pool plumbing and water flow along with posts about "Head loss", Never put a Check valve"here", always put one "there", etc and I started to wonder if there was a better way.

Looking at pics of other pool pads, a lot of them looked so "clean and neat" as far as the plumbing goes and when I look at my jumble of pipes I wonder if it could be made more steam lined for water flow efficiency purposes. I was just wondering if, when someone with more experience in these matters looked at my equipment, they would see some obvious Equipment locating errors or plumbing errors. I'm willing to do the work required but if what I have works, then I'll do what you said....fit in new equipment and replace what plumbing and valves I need to.

 

[Dirk]

You could trim some resistance with some better, shorter routing, and/or by using sweep elbows everywhere, but the gain would be negligible. Your new VS pump will make such a huge difference in your electric bill that plumbing improvements will pale in comparison.

The work to un-complicate your pad is going to be limited by the location of the pipes that go into the dirt, as there is nothing to be done about those now.

If you're determined, this is how I would proceed. Use your graph paper to plot the new concrete and the locations of all the pipes coming out of the dirt. Then try out various positions for all the major components (heater, pump, filter, etc) and see how they can be placed to minimize elbows. Length of pipe, in that small area, will be of no consequence. It's about the size of the pipe and the number and type of elbows. But, again, the difference in head between sweep 90s and standard, or 10 elbows or 15, will be teeny.

Now if you're like me, and want it to look good, then go for it. The real improvement could be access: to the pump for basket cleaning, to the filter for draining and cleaning, etc. Right now that must be pretty bad. I would concentrate on that aspect, rather than head, because that would be a real-world improvement. I would go with better access even over a few extra elbows and feet of pipe.

 

[Dawagonbus]

Access is a problem. When I have to work on the Pump/motor it becomes difficult in the tight space. I'm hoping the narrower Pentair filter(22") vs 30" on the Current sand filter will help that situation. I was even going to try moving the Booster Pump from it's current location to the other side of the filter so the filter would be a few inches from the wall.. that would mean the pad would go in this order: Heater, Main pump, Booster pump, filter. then look to see if the SWG could also be moved away from the wall.

Does the Blower need the Hartford loop? THAT takes up a lot of Pipe space since it goes up and down 3 times at 2 inches each time. Could I get away with raising it higher or putting some kind or Air check valve on the main down pipe? The Blower just sits on the downpipe right now...not sealed. it can twist in the pipe and be pulled right out of it.

Thanks for the tips! I know "every pool is different" so it does make it hard to give advice and I appreciate the help.

 

[Auburn02]

Dump the booster pump and get a robot? That'll earn you some space.

 

[Dirk]

Sorry, I don't know anything about blowers.

Robot is one way to go. I converted my pressure-side vac setup to suction-side, because I really wanted to get rid of the booster, so that might be another option, too. Didn't notice a difference in performance, but my pool doesn't get very dirty. My suction line is 1.5", so that can work. I guess it depends on what is getting sucked up.

 

[Dawagonbus]

I'll research the suction side cleaners .... My wife would like it if the Polaris wasn't spraying water on her windows every day. Would I just use the same line that the booster pump is on but splice it in to my suction from the skimmer? looks like I got my reading for this evening.

 

[Dirk]

I'll research the suction side cleaners .... My wife would like it if the Polaris wasn't spraying water on her windows every day.

I hated the Polaris I inherited. It wasn't just about the leaking booster pump. When I bought the house the nearest windows were coated with calcium and salt deposits. It took a full day of hard labor to get it off. I had to use mechanical abrasion, as no chemical would do it.

Would I just use the same line that the booster pump is on but splice it in to my suction from the skimmer? looks like I got my reading for this evening.

Yes, that's what they did for my new vac. I put an actuator on that valve so that my automation could control the balance between skimmer and vac. If you decide to go this route, ping me about it because I learned a lot about how to set that up for maximum performance and maximum safety.