Help!!? Any electricians on the board?

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Anjayla0021

Anjayla0021

0
May 12, 2017
128
S. E Michigan
We had an electrician over a few weeks ago to run conduit and get electricity out to the yard. He basically came out and dug the trench and buried the conduit and we were to call him when we received out pool/pump etc.

Now here we are two weeks later, he comes over to fit the job as we start removing our sod and setting up our pool. After almost 7 hours of working on the ground leveling, we started to assemble the top part of our intex pool to we can know where to put our cement footers. The guy basically freaked out and said "you never told me there was metal on your pool!". I KNOW we told him this as he asked about grounding the ladder before but we told him not to worry as we were not using the ladder that came with the pool and we were going to get a plastic one. Now here we are, sold all pulled up, ground leveled, cement footers in the ground and the electrician is packing up his stuff and leaving.

I have no idea what to do. This guy came over to see our pump and SWG to see all what he needed to do for the job. The sidings were all laid out so he could not miss them and they clearly do not look plastic (we have an 18' Ultra Frame pool).

He's being a jerk and we are now wondering what do to. Do these pools have to be grounded. Im sorry for sounding so ignorant but I am absolutely clueless when it comes to all this, especially electricity. Really need some advice...
 
sorry about him being a jerk, what voltage is the pump? I believe those are 110 pumps and need to be on a GFCI breaker...do the instructions have electrical requirements?

have you tried the AG pool forum, we have some pretty knowledgable folks on here, I'm sure someone will chime in in a minute
 
I have to be the one to tell you this, but while his delivery may need work he is looking out to protect you. There is a HUGE difference in the electrical code between "electricity out to the yard" and a pool installation.

Article 680 of the National Electrical Code applies to almost all pools - "Those constructed in the ground or partially in the ground, and all others capable of holding water in a depth greater than 42 in".

You really don't get to tell him what he needs to worry about. If he sees it and the code deals with it he is responsible.

Please understand the code is written and he is applying it for the protection of your family.
 
Yes, it is a 120 pump and needs to be on GFCI. He's saying that he basically needs to re-dig up his trench and conduit now in order to ground the pool. We have already re seeded and the grass has already grown in so this is a big bummer for us. He's running it from our circuit breaker box in our home outside into the conduit and erected it out near our pool onto a piece of wood where he placed 2 small boxes which he will put twist lock plugs? And also switches for both the pump and SWG. He said he is hard wiring the system and not utilizing the "plugs" that came with both the pump and SWG if that makes any sense. Obviously me not being the professional, I just said "ok". I most definitely want this to be safe, but I also don't want to be ripped off which I think is happening. Our original quote before this issue was around $900.00. 50% to start the job and the balance to be paid when the pool is fully up and running. Today he wanted another $350 to basically re dig the trench and run whatever he needs to ground.

Is this true that you cant just run all this together? Thoughts?

My 18' UG intex pool is costing me an arm and a leg, but we wanted to do this right and not run extension cords...

Please tell me I am not getting screwed :(




jjwalker said:
sorry about him being a jerk, what voltage is the pump? I believe those are 110 pumps and need to be on a GFCI breaker...do the instructions have electrical requirements?

have you tried the AG pool forum, we have some pretty knowledgable folks on here, I'm sure someone will chime in in a minute
Click to expand...
 
Bare ground? The only thing he has put in the ground is a conduit line that comes from the back of my house and runs underground to a wooden pole where he is attaching the twist lock plugs and switches. Assuming this bare wire would be what the grounding would be? That he did mention and it needs to be attached to a few of the metal pole legs ran around the pool and then attached to everything else. I think he mentioned doing the fencing too. Apparently the grounding should have been done when he ran the conduit because now he has to re dig the trench he initially dug for the conduit in order to ground the pool...which is why we are in this pickle now because he is blaming me for not telling him that there was metal on my pool. I know for sure I would never NOT mention the metal connectors; I have been researching this pool for two months and we picked the Intex Ultraframe because of the stronger legs.

jza1736 said:
Did he run a bare ground around the pool? It needs to go around the pool and attach to the equipment on the pad. All pools require this. If he did not then get a new electrician.
Click to expand...
 
The bare wire is for bonding. Which is different than grounding and is a special requirement for pools. All metal objects near a pool or in contact with the water are required to be bonded. More here, Pool School - Bonding vs Grounding

Regular electric circuits use a bare ground wire but pools are required to use an insulated ground wire, preferably with green insulation.

Here is a thread discussing bonding an Intex Ultra Frame pool. Bonding 12x24 Intex Ultra Frame
 
It doesn't matter if the pool is metal or any other material. The bare #8 around any pool is a BONDING wire. It is required for all pools. When your pool is metal it is supposed to connect to the pool at every broken joint. Inspectors can interpret this differently. Some say 4 points around the pool, plus any lights, ladders, or any other metal parts. Some want every where the metal is mechanically joined. The way I do it has always passed. I attach to any metal part in the pool and at least 6 joints around the pool. I use a split Bolt nut to attach the wire to itself before I run the wire to the pad with no breaks. Then bond the equipment on the pad. You will see the lugs on the equipment. Your fence would only have to be connected to this bond if it is metal, and if it's within 5 feet.
 

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So pool school says:

"Temporary pools do not normally need to be bonded. Permanently installed pools do need to be bonded. Temporary pools are typically defined as above ground pools that have water less than four feet deep, although this varies somewhat from place to place."

Wouldn't the Intex be considered a temporary pool? Why would a temporary pool NOT have to be bonded
? It sounds like this is what the electrician is saying he needs to do now...

pooldv said:
The bare wire is for bonding. Which is different than grounding and is a special requirement for pools. All metal objects near a pool or in contact with the water are required to be bonded. More here, Pool School - Bonding vs Grounding

Regular electric circuits use a bare ground wire but pools are required to use an insulated ground wire, preferably with green insulation.

Here is a thread discussing bonding an Intex Ultra Frame pool. Bonding 12x24 Intex Ultra Frame
Click to expand...
 
It really depends on what local code requires. Different municipalities adopt different codes. Your electrician is likely the best qualified person to answer what is required for your pool installation. Or the building permit office. Yes, many Intex pools are installed without bonding.
 
Anjayla0021 said:
Wouldn't the Intex be considered a temporary pool?
Click to expand...
According to the National Electrical Code, pools with a depth less than 42 inches is does not have to meet the requirements of Article 680 of the National Electrical Code. Above 42 inches you are required to.

Before you ask, no you can't just fill it part way. It is what ever depth the pool is designed to hold.

42 inches is the magic number.
 
The importance of bonding :
Bonding is defined as: ”*. . .the practice of intentionally electrically connecting all exposed metallic items not designed to carry electricity in a room or building as protection from electric shock.” (Wikipedia) Another way of putting it is that the primary purpose of bonding is to keep people and electricity separated. Stray currents (or electrical gradients) can occur in a swimming pool. Every metal component, the pool water and your body are all conductive and will carry electricity in the right situation.

In an improperly bonded pool stray currents are out of control and will seek the easiest path for conductivity. A bonded pool balances the electrical pressure and keeps all currents flowing outward into a bonding wire or grid where they are safely dispersed.
 
Thanks everyone. I'm really upset we ran into this problem today, but want everything to be done right. I feel like my electrician kind of failed me in a way by blaming me for not informing him of certain things. Hopefully everything works and we will hopefully be filling our pool this week since we spent all day setting it up!

Our pool is 18'x52" so it sounds like we would be over the 42" number anyways...Just a little sticker shocked at the pricing I suppose to do all this for a "temporary pool".
 
So is it safe to say that a copper wire cannot also be run through the conduit he has already dug and buried that goes out to the switch boxes for electricity? Is it just run bare then? I am just trying to justify the additional work he is saying needs to be done to bond the pool. Re-digging the trench just is not sitting well with me. But if thats the case that he needs to re-dig in order to bond the pool, then I can justify the additional work and money to pay.
 
An insulated GROUND wire must be pulled in the conduit. The bare BONDING wire is seperate and can not be pulled through the conduit. It is to be 4-6" under grade and 18-24" away from the edge around the pool. The trench needed doesn't have to be really deep.
 
Would he be re-digging the same trench that he did for the rigid conduit (I think thats what he said it was) and run it along it just not inside? Or woudl he have to dig a whole new trench 4-6' for the bonding wire? Does it matter if the bonding wire runs along the same trench as the rigid conduit? Sorry for the ignorance!

jza1736 said:
An insulated GROUND wire must be pulled in the conduit. The bare BONDING wire is separate and can not be pulled through the conduit. It is to be 4-6" under grade and 18-24" away from the edge around the pool. The trench needed doesn't have to be really deep.
Click to expand...
 

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