Heat Pump Advice

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Here is the temp table for Buffalo, NY

Month Avg.High Avg.Low Mean Avg.Precip RecordHigh RecordLow
May 66°F 48°F 57°F 3.35 in. 94°F (1911) 25°F (1926)
Jun 75°F 57°F 66°F 3.82 in. 98°F (1938) 36°F (1972)
Jul 80°F 62°F 71°F 3.14 in. 97°F (1995) 43°F (1945)
Aug 78°F 60°F 69°F 3.87 in. 99°F (1948) 38°F (1982)
Sep 70°F 53°F 62°F 3.84 in. 98°F (1953) 32°F (1991)
Oct 59°F 43°F 51°F 3.19 in. 92°F (1927) 20°F (1965)
 
Your pretty close to averages in central Massachusetts. It will work great late May through say Labor day. Early May and into September, not so much. You might be able to keep 80 degrees into early september, but you will need to run it basically 12 hours a day, during the day. Running it at night when it's down in the mid to low 50's wont do much except run up the power bill. If it's low 60's and raining/drizzle, you may as well shut it off.
 
bk406 said:
Your pretty close to averages in central Massachusetts. It will work great late May through say Labor day. Early May and into September, not so much. You might be able to keep 80 degrees into early september, but you will need to run it basically 12 hours a day, during the day. Running it at night when it's down in the mid to low 50's wont do much except run up the power bill. If it's low 60's and raining/drizzle, you may as well shut it off.
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Thanks, that was my thoughts. When it is low 60's you do not want to swim outside anyway. For me it have to be sunny 70's to think about pool.
 
ponti3900 said:
Thanks, that was my thoughts. When it is low 60's you do not want to swim outside anyway. For me it have to be sunny 70's to think about pool.
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While that's true for a lot of people, you still need to run the heat pump during the day, even if its just barely maintianing the temp of the pool. Heat pumps are designed to maintain the pool temperature. They are not so good at bringing up the water temps quickly. Even if you aren't swimming on a particular day, but know that in 2 days you have a 70+ degree day and want to swim, you still need to let the HP run to keep the temp up. If you let it drop 10 degrees then want to raise it back to 80 again, it can take several days to do that (especially early or late in the season) depending on the ambient air temp.
 
bk406 said:
ponti3900 said:
Thanks, that was my thoughts. When it is low 60's you do not want to swim outside anyway. For me it have to be sunny 70's to think about pool.
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While that's true for a lot of people, you still need to run the heat pump during the day, even if its just barely maintianing the temp of the pool. Heat pumps are designed to maintain the pool temperature. They are not so good at bringing up the water temps quickly. Even if you aren't swimming on a particular day, but know that in 2 days you have a 70+ degree day and want to swim, you still need to let the HP run to keep the temp up. If you let it drop 10 degrees then want to raise it back to 80 again, it can take several days to do that (especially early or late in the season) depending on the ambient air temp.
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As a thought, using these analagies, that's where you weigh in whether you want a gas heater or heat pump. Gas heat can raise the temperature rather quickly. The only real disadvantage is the upfront costs. I would guess (and I'm guessing) that the electric cost and gas cost to heat a pool would be quite similar. The advantage of a gas heater, you don't have to keep heating the pool. I only have my hot tub as a comparison now, but heating 660 gallons from 70 to 100 in 20 degree weather took no more than 15 minutes. Since my pool is 22000 gallons, I can heat the pool 40 deg delta in 24 hours from the specs on my heater.
Even during the 20 degree weather, my hot tub (gunnite) with a cover took several days to go from 100 to 70. Now it takes close to a week during the 50-60 degree weather. I suspect heating it from 70 to 80 in 70 degree weather won't be longer than 12 hours. But if you would only use the pool sporadically, it really comes down to cost analysis. Just some of my thoughts with respect to a gas heater.
 
XsAllOverIt said:
I would guess (and I'm guessing) that the electric cost and gas cost to heat a pool would be quite similar. .
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That may be true with caveats. Depends on energy costs in a given area, but yea, I think thats generally true in climates outside of the deep south, and how you use the pool on either end of the traditional pool season. I've done the analysis before and wont detail it again, but if the electric rates are between 12-20 cents and gas at ~$1 per therm, its about equal, give or take.
 
If I remember correctly, electric rates are fairly good in northern NY state. With electricity anywhere near $0.10 per kwh a heat pump is much less expensive than gas heat, at least when the air temperature is reasonable. Now some or maybe even most of that will be canceled out by needing to keep the water temperature high more or less all the time with a heat pump, while a good sized gas heater can be turned on the day before you want to swim. So it comes down to a question of how frequently you want to swim (gas is better for infrequent swimming) and how much you want to extend the season vs have warmer water in the summer (heat pumps are most efficient in the summer, and not so great in the spring and fall when the air temperature is lower).
 
JasonLion said:
If I remember correctly, electric rates are fairly good in northern NY state. With electricity anywhere near $0.10 per kwh a heat pump is much less expensive than gas heat, at least when the air temperature is reasonable. Now some or maybe even most of that will be canceled out by needing to keep the water temperature high more or less all the time with a heat pump, while a good sized gas heater can be turned on the day before you want to swim. So it comes down to a question of how frequently you want to swim (gas is better for infrequent swimming) and how much you want to extend the season vs have warmer water in the summer (heat pumps are most efficient in the summer, and not so great in the spring and fall when the air temperature is lower).
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+1 :goodjob:
 
JasonLion said:
If I remember correctly, electric rates are fairly good in northern NY state. With electricity anywhere near $0.10 per kwh a heat pump is much less expensive than gas heat, at least when the air temperature is reasonable. Now some or maybe even most of that will be canceled out by needing to keep the water temperature high more or less all the time with a heat pump, while a good sized gas heater can be turned on the day before you want to swim. So it comes down to a question of how frequently you want to swim (gas is better for infrequent swimming) and how much you want to extend the season vs have warmer water in the summer (heat pumps are most efficient in the summer, and not so great in the spring and fall when the air temperature is lower).
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Here is what I have to pay:

Nat Gas: 12.24 ¢/m3
Electricity: 5.1¢/kWh (off-peak time)
 

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Everything I've read from all 3 of us chiming in, it really comes down to a personal choice. Your costs will be similar regardless of which way you go. Your initial costs will be slightly higher if you go the gas route (and having to purchase another heater when this one goes bad). I personally had no choice with a hot tub that runs FULL-TIME during the winter (and boy was that NICE!!!). I certainly do like my long term choices since I've got a gas line big enough to do interesting things in the future. I don't ever plan on leaving my back yard :) Good luck and tell us what you decide.
 
If I am doing my math right, that is also a fairly amazing natural gas price, so a gas heater, while still more expensive than a heat pump at high air temperatures, isn't all that much more expensive.

A m3 is about 1/3 of a CCF and a CCF is around a therm. I'm paying $1.26 a therm, while ponti3900's rate works out to somewhere around $0.36 per therm. My electric rate is about 2.5 times higher, while my gas rate is about 3.5 times higher.
 
JasonLion said:
If I am doing my math right, that is also a fairly amazing natural gas price, so a gas heater, while still more expensive than a heat pump at high air temperatures, isn't all that much more expensive.

A m3 is about 1/3 of a CCF and a CCF is around a therm. I'm paying $1.26 a therm, while ponti3900's rate works out to somewhere around $0.36 per therm. My electric rate is about 2.5 times higher, while my gas rate is about 3.5 times higher.
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Jason, I neglected to add "delivery charge" to gas and it is roughly 10c/m. Here is the official web-site with energy prices in Ontario: http://www.oeb.gov.on.ca/OEB/Consumers

Anyway, I just ordered AquaPRO® PRO500 50,000 BTU Pool Heat Pump for $1700+HST. I am planning to open the pool by beginning of May and have a HP installed by that time. Will post my results, I promise.
 
ponti3900 said:
Anyway, I just ordered AquaPRO® PRO500 50,000 BTU Pool Heat Pump for $1700+HST. I am planning to open the pool by beginning of May and have a HP installed by that time. Will post my results, I promise.
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How many gallons is your pool? A 50K seems way undersized for 15' x 30' in Canada. :?:
 
mx702 said:
ponti3900 said:
Anyway, I just ordered AquaPRO® PRO500 50,000 BTU Pool Heat Pump for $1700+HST. I am planning to open the pool by beginning of May and have a HP installed by that time. Will post my results, I promise.
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How many gallons is your pool? A 50K seems way undersized for 15' x 30' in Canada. :?:
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14K gallons. 50K pump can use existing wires (I have 3 wires size 12 in a conduit already done) and standard 20amp breaker, also it is smaller that 85K pump. I did not want monster pump next to my pool.
 

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