Have issue with very low pH and extremely high alkalinity

[JamesW]

Not All Color Pigments are Good for Pools

There are two important issues involved when trying to achieve quality colored pool plaster that will remain durable, attractive, and the proper shade for many years. The first issue is to utilize superior workmanship practices to achieve good color, with minimal mottling, and no blotchiness...

www.troublefreepool.com

Pool Plaster Tips for the Average Homeowner

A quality plaster job can last a homeowner for decades. We help share basic steps that can be taken before, during, and after the plastering of a pool.

www.troublefreepool.com

Pigments and Pools - Water Shapes

Colored plaster and aggregate finishes are found in more and more watershapes these days. But as Que Hales, Doug Latta and Kim Skinner discuss, not all pigments are created equal -- and knowing how to choose among the options can be the key to a project's success.

watershapes.com

http://www.poolhelp.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Colorfastness-Handout.pdf

 

[SoDel]

I can relate to your frustration with understanding the relationships between the elements of the CSI but trust me, if I can get it, you can, and it becomes almost second nature over time and experience with a CSI calculator (like poolmath).

It basically boils down to this: each element is (more or less) listed below by the effect it has on CSI, most to least, assuming a 10% change.
pH -> increases CSI as it rises; has the greatest effect by far
temperature -> increases CSI as it rises
TA -> increases CSI as it rises
CH -> increases CSI as it rises
CYA (as a component of TA) -> decreases CSI as it rises, as a percentage of TA
TDS -> decreases CSI as it rises

The way CSI is calculated, basically there’s a formula to figure out, given any particular water chemistry numbers and temp, at what pH would the water achieve calcium carbonate saturation. This number gets subtracted from actual pH and gives an indication in the form of a CSI number of how far off it actually is, and in what direction, or at least that’s one way of looking at it.

The practical effect is you can balance your water at any reasonable value of any of the elements by adjusting the others. So say CH is a little high, then lower TA and pH a little, no big deal. You can experiment in poolmath to see exactly what does what. It will also help to show you where the limits are. For example, if you get CH so high that you need to lower TA or pH to unreasonable levels to balance your CSI, time to replace or RO the water to get CH back down to where you can balance things, etc.

 

[xtexan86]

Not All Color Pigments are Good for Pools

There are two important issues involved when trying to achieve quality colored pool plaster that will remain durable, attractive, and the proper shade for many years. The first issue is to utilize superior workmanship practices to achieve good color, with minimal mottling, and no blotchiness...

www.troublefreepool.com

Pool Plaster Tips for the Average Homeowner

A quality plaster job can last a homeowner for decades. We help share basic steps that can be taken before, during, and after the plastering of a pool.

www.troublefreepool.com

Pigments and Pools - Water Shapes

Colored plaster and aggregate finishes are found in more and more watershapes these days. But as Que Hales, Doug Latta and Kim Skinner discuss, not all pigments are created equal -- and knowing how to choose among the options can be the key to a project's success.

watershapes.com

http://www.poolhelp.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Colorfastness-Handout.pdf

Thanks, I believe I have read all of these articles and more. I understand blue is actually one of the worst plaster colors and that yes, a lot depends on how the initial application was applied and that will determine how long your plaster will last. I had a 4th generation pool plaster company do my pool, and the owner has (no surprise) strongly defended his workmanship. Which only brings me back to the main't people and they, (no surprise) INSIST it was something the plasterer did. Again, I think my only recourse is to figure out and present a chemical scenario that logically explains what happened, then hopefully I can get the money it took me to replaster my pool. But aside from that, my main focus is to figure out how to solve my current water problems and with that, how I keep getting rising CH levels.

 

[xtexan86]

I can relate to your frustration with understanding the relationships between the elements of the CSI but trust me, if I can get it, you can, and it becomes almost second nature over time and experience with a CSI calculator (like poolmath).

It basically boils down to this: each element is (more or less) listed below by the effect it has on CSI, most to least, assuming a 10% change.
pH -> increases CSI as it rises; has the greatest effect by far
temperature -> increases CSI as it rises
TA -> increases CSI as it rises
CH -> increases CSI as it rises
CYA (as a component of TA) -> decreases CSI as it rises, as a percentage of TA
TDS -> decreases CSI as it rises

The way CSI is calculated, basically there’s a formula to figure out, given any particular water chemistry numbers and temp, at what pH would the water achieve calcium carbonate saturation. This number gets subtracted from actual pH and gives an indication in the form of a CSI number of how far off it actually is, and in what direction, or at least that’s one way of looking at it.

The practical effect is you can balance your water at any reasonable value of any of the elements by adjusting the others. So say CH is a little high, then lower TA and pH a little, no big deal. You can experiment in poolmath to see exactly what does what. It will also help to show you where the limits are. For example, if you get CH so high that you need to lower TA or pH to unreasonable levels to balance your CSI, time to replace or RO the water to get CH back down to where you can balance things, etc.

Ok, this is helpful. Is the point then to keep the CSI at a 0 or slight negative? What is TDS? So, CSI is just an indicator of how all these other components are reacting together with each other, right? As you say, if one rises, it affects others and in turn changes the CSI. My readings this morning were pH 7.6, TA 100, CYA still at 100 (no surprise), CH 325 and FC and CC, both at 7.5. Just needing another day or so and I can drain off another 1/2 or so of the water and that should take care of the CYA issue.

 

[SoDel]

Ok, this is helpful. Is the point then to keep the CSI at a 0 or slight negative? What is TDS? So, CSI is just an indicator of how all these other components are reacting together with each other, right? As you say, if one rises, it affects others and in turn changes the CSI. My readings this morning were pH 7.6, TA 100, CYA still at 100 (no surprise), CH 325 and FC and CC, both at 7.5. Just needing another day or so and I can drain off another 1/2 or so of the water and that should take care of the CYA issue.

Conventional wisdom is keep CSI between -0.3 and 0.3 and you won’t have trouble in a plaster pool. If you have a SWG, keep it a little tighter, between -0.3 and 0.0 to account for the higher pH environment (and other stuff going on in there) inside the cell and prevent scaling up the cell. At least where I am, it’s pretty easy to keep it within those limits.

TDS is total dissolved solids. Everything dissolved in the water. Salt, TA, CH, add a little fudge factor for minerals if your fill water has high mineral content. It doesn’t effect CSI all that much until it starts getting high. My salt is at 3,200 ppm and I use a TDS value of 4,000 to account for the other stuff (that’s high enough to be significant). As far as I know, my fill water isn’t high in magnesium or other minerals (city water).

CSI is exactly a single number summation of how all the components are interacting. If any one changes, it will change the CSI. (There are a bunch of complex interactions and inter-dependencies chemically going on under the hood in your water but no need to worry about any of that If you’re not a chemist (and I’m not)). The poolmath app does the calculation and tells you if your water is balanced or not and by plugging in proposed numbers for where you think you want to go, it will figure it all out and give the result.

For example, my pH is usually between 7.6 to 8.0, TA 60, CYA 40, TDS 4,000, temp low 80’s. Plug in those numbers and keep adjusting CH until the CSI is in the range I want it (I’m lucky because my fill water is benign and I get enough rain that I barely use any anyway — so for me it’s easy to peg a CH number that works and pretty much auto-pilot with the rest from there). Then go to the “effect of adding” tab and figure out how much calcium chloride to add to get there. Same with winter coming and will close up in a couple months. How much TA do I need to add so the water won’t eat my plaster when it’s 32 degrees F. Easy to figure out by just plugging in the other numbers and adjusting TA until the CSI lands where I want it.

 

[xtexan86]

If I could add another point of view. You seem to be obsessed with where the CH rise came from. Totally ok as a matter of curiosity but it’s water under the bridge. Maybe a testing error (I can’t reconcile your numbers). Maybe this, that or the other. Right now, lower your CYA with water replace,, get your FC right, and balance your water with poolmath and asking any question on this forum.

I’m not a chemist but I “know,” calcium is soluble in water and will dissolve calcium until saturated. If it takes 600 to reach saturation, your CH will eventually hit 600, taking it from your plaster. Your numbers don’t reflect that (who did all the tests?), but aside from that it’s something to understand. Poolmath (mike drop ).

It seems to me that the high rise in CH is contributing to my water problems though. I would think if your pool suddenly changed color within 1-2 months after just being plastered, you would want answers too, especially if the only 2 possibilities (plasterer/pool main't company) deny it was their fault and blame the other. It cost me over $1000 plus my labor to "repair" the issue on my own as all other options started at a minimum of $6,000. If I can't come up with a viable and explainable reason as to what caused the issue, CH rise being among the list of possibilities) then how would I win a judgement in court that could at least refund me my costs?

 

[JeanZ1]

My $0.02, for what it's worth. You are looking for someone to definitively state that due to corrosive water, your plaster suffered (I think this is what you are after, but not sure). However, with the data presented from the pool maintenance company no one will make that determination because the results are simply too unreliable to draw such conclusions.

If you're really determined, plug in the numbers to poolmath and establish the CSI on those dates and draw your own conclusions. I think that's the closest you're going to get to what you want.

I also think you're looking at CH rise as the problem instead of as a result of the problem. Keep in mind there was only one highly elevated data point and an error of +/-100m/L or more is not unusual for pool store/maint results. That's why the emphasis here on proper test kits, we can all talk apples to apples and know the results are highly reliable.

 

[SoDel]

It seems to me that the high rise in CH is contributing to my water problems though. I would think if your pool suddenly changed color within 1-2 months after just being plastered, you would want answers too, especially if the only 2 possibilities (plasterer/pool main't company) deny it was their fault and blame the other. It cost me over $1000 plus my labor to "repair" the issue on my own as all other options started at a minimum of $6,000. If I can't come up with a viable and explainable reason as to what caused the issue, CH rise being among the list of possibilities) then how would I win a judgement in court that could at least refund me my costs?

I’m no plaster expert by far. My focus / interest in this thread has been your water balance and water sanitation going forward — I probably should have said that.

To win a judgement in court for a case like this you’ll need expert testimony establishing the cause of the defect and the cost to remedy it. These guys are experts and post on this forum: About Us – Pool Help I don’t know exactly how to contact them for a consulting engagement but I’m sure someone does.

My hunch is the analysis and testimony for an actual court case would cost many times more than the numbers you mention, but I’ve never hired pool plaster experts.

I would say you’re on to something, whether it be the plaster job or the maintenance. Just my “common sensing it” reaction is pool plaster does not do what yours did if the job was done right and it was maintained properly.

 

[Bperry]

It seems to me that the high rise in CH is contributing to my water problems though. I would think if your pool suddenly changed color within 1-2 months after just being plastered, you would want answers too, especially if the only 2 possibilities (plasterer/pool main't company) deny it was their fault and blame the other. It cost me over $1000 plus my labor to "repair" the issue on my own as all other options started at a minimum of $6,000. If I can't come up with a viable and explainable reason as to what caused the issue, CH rise being among the list of possibilities) then how would I win a judgement in court that could at least refund me my costs?

It’s not a fun response, but realistically I don’t believe you’ll be winning anything in court unless you can prove a contract was broken or a valid warranty was not honored.

If your plaster contract states anything about colorfastness in its warranty then you might have a shot, but even then it’s a long shot. Your contract was with the plaster applicator, not the plaster supplier so it all hinges on what your contract states.

 

[Cena_sea]

I am wondering what chemicals they put into your pool at original startup. I thought our water supply here was ok for pool water but your numbers are a little high. If calcium is 140 from tap, calcium may slowly increase over time. If your fill calcium is 90 that’s not too bad I think. Our tap was 50 and pool calcium has slowly dropped. 150 TA fill water is also high. I would think your ph would rise with high TA but it sounds pretty low. Do you have any water features to add water movement to increase your ph?

 

[xtexan86]

My $0.02, for what it's worth. You are looking for someone to definitively state that due to corrosive water, your plaster suffered (I think this is what you are after, but not sure). However, with the data presented from the pool maintenance company no one will make that determination because the results are simply too unreliable to draw such conclusions.

If you're really determined, plug in the numbers to poolmath and establish the CSI on those dates and draw your own conclusions. I think that's the closest you're going to get to what you want.

I also think you're looking at CH rise as the problem instead of as a result of the problem. Keep in mind there was only one highly elevated data point and an error of +/-100m/L or more is not unusual for pool store/maint results. That's why the emphasis here on proper test kits, we can all talk apples to apples and know the results are highly reliable.

No, not looking for definitive statements and plugging in the numbers is a good plan and one I hope to get to in a few days. As I stated in another post (somewhere!) my best argument is that the main't company did not keep the chemicals within the industry standards. If recommended levels are advised because that's what keeps the water and plaster in a happy co-existance, and someone who is getting paid to know better doesn't do that, then it can't it be possible that's what contributed to the ruined plaster? I've asked this several times and still haven't gotten an answer but does anyone know what the CL (chlorine) levels of 8++ are indicating? FC? CC? I need to know this to plug in the pool math app. I know (now) that they used too much chlorine and that, along with the high TA and rising CH, all bad things working on sensitive plaster that is still curing so maybe this doesn't happen that often and why people can't venture much of a guess, I get what you mean about talking apples to apples, but I saw the pool supervisor (once he got involved) do the chemical tests every time he came over, using the same reactants I have in my Taylor test kit, so how is that not comparable? Speaking of tests, my pH this morning is a bit over 8 (added a little muriactic acid), CYA is 60, TA is 100/125, CH is 225 and FC and CC are 5.5. I haven't put a drop of chlorine in for 6 days now and replaced half of the water again last night. Is the chlorine level where it should be?

 

[xtexan86]

It’s not a fun response, but realistically I don’t believe you’ll be winning anything in court unless you can prove a contract was broken or a valid warranty was not honored.

If your plaster contract states anything about colorfastness in its warranty then you might have a shot, but even then it’s a long shot. Your contract was with the plaster applicator, not the plaster supplier so it all hinges on what your contract states.

Plasterer doesn't warranty against color loss but swears the material he's used for decades hasn't caused him any problems. My best argument I think is that the main't company didn't keep the chemical levels within industry standards...is that not a good argument in your opinion? I know I'm screwed, it's just one of those cases where I wasn't responsible for what happened to my pool. Many people elect for different reasons not to bother testing or maintaining their pools, that doesn't mean they're the ones that should be blamed or lose money when something goes wrong.

 

[xtexan86]

I am wondering what chemicals they put into your pool at original startup. I thought our water supply here was ok for pool water but your numbers are a little high. If calcium is 140 from tap, calcium may slowly increase over time. If your fill calcium is 90 that’s not too bad I think. Our tap was 50 and pool calcium has slowly dropped. 150 TA fill water is also high. I would think your ph would rise with high TA but it sounds pretty low. Do you have any water features to add water movement to increase your ph?

No, one of my return jets kinda breaks the surface a little bit but no fountain features, etc. I'm amazed that your CA actually drops!! Where in NorCal are you? Our water is a little hard but not too much. Do you have any idea of what my CL readings of 8++ are from? CC or TC? Thanks!

 

[Bperry]

Plasterer doesn't warranty against color loss but swears the material he's used for decades hasn't caused him any problems. My best argument I think is that the main't company didn't keep the chemical levels within industry standards...is that not a good argument in your opinion? I know I'm screwed, it's just one of those cases where I wasn't responsible for what happened to my pool. Many people elect for different reasons not to bother testing or maintaining their pools, that doesn't mean they're the ones that should be blamed or lose money when something goes wrong.

Can you prove the maintenance company did something outside of industry standards? Which standard did they violate?

If you can’t document the answer to those questions, then I wouldn’t waste your money on small claims court.

Addition: I don’t mean to be a negative Nancy. Just hoping to help you cut your losses avoid losing more money.

 

[JeanZ1]

As to your question of whether the chlorine results are TC or FC, we would have no way of knowing. Call the maint co and ask.

Your FC is a little low, should be between 7-9. Follow FC/CYA chart

The Free Chlorine and Cyanuric Acid Relationship

Managing your cyanuric acid and Free Chlorine levels is key to stabilizing your pool. Learn how these two items affect each other.

www.troublefreepool.com