Going from Single Speed to Variable PENTAIR after 10 years (question)

[JackHarkness]

So I've been on a Single Speed Jandy...and balancing the pool has been okay for the most part, but I had to not run the pump as much due to electric usage being crazy for the amount most people wanted to run it. I only run 4 hours a day....and before anyone says it : yes, algae has always been an issue....and I haven't been able to chlorinate much and it seems cost of chlorine increased over the years...and now there's a shortage?

In any case - I finally have $$ saved to replace the pump - and this time - I also want a SWG system (eyeing a CircuPOOL 35).

Does anyone know if the PENTAIR 011056 VARIABLE FLOW is needed over a VARIABLE SPEED 011028 ? Seems the only difference is variable flow. I read what that does, and it seems people say it's not entirely necessary. Most pool companies however are charging $1850 w/labor to get the 011028 installed... Leslies wants $2100 and they say there's $100 rewards and another $100 from pentair (mail in)....basically comes to 1917... It's a $120 difference. The leslies guy assured me the 011056 is the newest and claimed I would need to go through any warranty with Leslies...

I found it odd...not pentair? He told me I didn't even have to register with pentair (that was odd) because they're a pentair direct warranty rep?

Anyone know what the deal is?

SECOND ISSUE:

Also - SWG I'd be installing myself - if the pump is off and I cut the return pipe at the couplings (90degree ones) - would a lot of water leak out or only the bit in the section I cut?

Is the CircuPOOL 35 with the cord considered a "good" SWG system? I know some have panels but....figured I'd ask!

Thanks!

 

[needsajet]

Does your pool have any features like waterfalls, bubblers, slide, etc.? Do you use a suction cleaner attached to the skimmer or a suction port? Do you have any heating, if so, what type?

Don't worry, the algae can be solved without any different pump, anytime you're ready to do so. 4 hours pump time through winter is fine, I know one user here that gets by with 2 hrs through winter. Yes, you may need more like 8 or 10 hrs with a 1.0 HP pump for your size pool, from now until end of season.

Great decision to go SWCG. That would be my priority. We have members here with circupool, so I'll leave model recommendations to them. discountsaltpool was considered a good supplier, so you might want to check them out. In any event, choose a SWCG rated for a 30,000 gallon pool, so you won;t have to run your pump extra for SWCG time, only run pump as needed for filtering dust and debris.

As far as water escaping during plumbing, is your pad above the pool water level, or below? If below, I suspect there are valves to isolate the pool. If not, there are temporary plugs that can be used. Water will leak out from whatever is above where you do the plumbing work, for example from the filter, but that's not a big deal.

Variable speed is fine. A two-speed pump is also an option.

 

[needsajet]

PS. If you reckon you can plumb the SWCG, and it's not hard with a few tips before you start, you can plumb a pump too. If you know a sparky to do the wiring, or just hire qualified, that covers the electrical. You may have those skills as well, I don't know, but just main point is with the help on this forum, you can save a fair number of dollars vs. parking anywhere near a pool store

 

[needsajet]

Yes, you may need more like 8 or 10 hrs with a 1.0 HP pump for your size pool, from now until end of season.

I need to clarify... this depends a lot on how much the pool gets used, how much dust you get, surface debris, etc. etc.

My typical schedule on five pools is 3-4 hrs in winter, 4-6 hours in spring and autumn, and 6-10 hours in summer. The bigger numbers are for 21K gals, smaller for 10K gals.

 

[Rancho Cost-a-Lotta]

Just a quick side note. Since the VS pump will wired to constant power, plan on using your current pump timer for the SWG. Select a SWG that can be hardwired to the timer.
.

 

[JackHarkness]

Does your pool have any features like waterfalls, bubblers, slide, etc.? Do you use a suction cleaner attached to the skimmer or a suction port? Do you have any heating, if so, what type?

Don't worry, the algae can be solved without any different pump, anytime you're ready to do so. 4 hours pump time through winter is fine, I know one user here that gets by with 2 hrs through winter. Yes, you may need more like 8 or 10 hrs with a 1.0 HP pump for your size pool, from now until end of season.

Great decision to go SWCG. That would be my priority. We have members here with circupool, so I'll leave model recommendations to them. discountsaltpool was considered a good supplier, so you might want to check them out. In any event, choose a SWCG rated for a 30,000 gallon pool, so you won;t have to run your pump extra for SWCG time, only run pump as needed for filtering dust and debris.

As far as water escaping during plumbing, is your pad above the pool water level, or below? If below, I suspect there are valves to isolate the pool. If not, there are temporary plugs that can be used. Water will leak out from whatever is above where you do the plumbing work, for example from the filter, but that's not a big deal.

Variable speed is fine. A two-speed pump is also an option.

Hi - by pad you mean the whole shebang including pump etc? I would say above the pool (in-ground).

Also no the pool has no special features.

 

[needsajet]

Hi - by pad you mean the whole shebang including pump etc? I would say above the pool (in-ground).

Also no the pool has no special features.

You don't need a new pump to get rid of algae. That's water chemistry and easy to solve at minimum cost, using Trouble Free Pool Care (TFPC).

The SWCG makes chlorinating easier and is equally as trouble free as liquid chlorination. The cost is like paying for the next four or five year's chlorine in advance. Over the long term, your cost will be roughly the same, or a tad less. And no worries about chlorine shortages!

Using any solid form of chlorine over the long term will cause problems, unless you get a lot of rainfall or have a short season and the pool is partially emptied each year (e.g. eastern USA, parts of WA/OR and some other areas).

Solving algae problem starts with a proper test kit and avoiding pool stores. The cost of a proper test kit can be easily recovered in three or four months in your area. Annihilating the algae so your summer is trouble free will take a bit of work up front - a couple of half-days at the beginning, and then testing and adding chlorine (15 minutes) 3 times a day for a few days, sometimes even for a week or two if the pool is bad. It's explained here: SLAM Process

 

[needsajet]

I should say I don't know how bad your local chlorine shortage is, but if you decide to go the recommended route, you'll need liquid chlorine. If kept at reasonable temperature (below 85) and out of the sun, it keeps OK for several months, but is always best used fresh. You could start stocking up as you see it available, but I wouldn't hesitate to buy around 10 or 15 gallons before a SLAM of a pool that's been consistently troublesome.

You won't know your CYA level until you have a test kit, but you may need to replace some water, which I know is a factor for you there in CA. We can help you keep that to a minimum as well. Suffice to say that getting the pool right with TFPC and keeping it that way is also the best enviro/eco/green way to go, including consideration of water replacement.

 

[JackHarkness]

I should say I don't know how bad your local chlorine shortage is, but if you decide to go the recommended route, you'll need liquid chlorine. If kept at reasonable temperature (below 85) and out of the sun, it keeps OK for several months, but is always best used fresh. You could start stocking up as you see it available, but I wouldn't hesitate to buy around 10 or 15 gallons before a SLAM of a pool that's been consistently troublesome.

You won't know your CYA level until you have a test kit, but you may need to replace some water, which I know is a factor for you there in CA. We can help you keep that to a minimum as well. Suffice to say that getting the pool right with TFPC and keeping it that way is also the best enviro/eco/green way to go, including consideration of water replacement.

CYA is like 45. I have the K-2006C Taylor kit And I'm just honestly tired of liquid chlorine tbh.

I went ahead with the SWG ichlor 30 and the Pentair pump to compliment it. The pump was definitely necessary for me because chlorinating was nice and all but because I couldn't run the pump enough, I felt it wasn't distributing properly..and tbh sometimes expenses keep me from getting liquid chlorine. I would definitely rather have a pump that runs longer.

 

[needsajet]

Perfect! And great to know you have the K-2006C (I should have noticed that!)

If you need or want any help with the SLAM, let us know, but after that, your pool will sparkle and be easy to look after.

 

[JackHarkness]

Perfect! And great to know you have the K-2006C (I should have noticed that!)

If you need or want any help with the SLAM, let us know, but after that, your pool will sparkle and be easy to look after.

The SWG to the pump timer bit confuses me - coudl you elaborate? I was told the timer wouldn't be necessary with a VSP and will effectively be phased out - since the SWG only operates once the water flows through it - did I miss something?

 

[needsajet]

I keep a table of SWCG output, and it took me 20 minutes to find it for the I30, lol. I have no idea why these companies are so secretive. I also read the manual which is not up to Pentair's usual standard, but I found what I needed, lol.

You can order an extra cable (RS-485) to link the two, maybe you already have, and do everything except SWCG % from the pump timer. That's great to see!

The output is 1.0 lbs per day according to one third-party website (anyone else please correct that if need be). That equates to 3 ppm FC per day at 100% for nine hours pump run time, so you should be in good shape for heavy swim days (after the algae is gone, of course).

Excellent choices!

 

[needsajet]

Here's the manual https://www.pentair.com/content/dam...tment/ichlor/ichlor-manual-522709-english.pdf

 

[needsajet]

Before I stop over-answering, haha...

Think about how you want it installed. They'll often bury a pump among the pipes, leaving decent access to get the strainer basket out, which used to be fine.

With VS, you'll access the control panel often, so think about having the control panel easy to access (without crawling under a pipe or leaning way out over stuff). Same for the flip-cover and buttons on the i30.

If the installer says "you only muck with that once in a blue moon, mate, no worries, she'll be right", he might be an Aussie, but stick to what you want. You'll probably be accessing that panel and the controls on the SWCG way more often than the strainer basket.

 

[JackHarkness]

Before I stop over-answering, haha...

Think about how you want it installed. They'll often bury a pump among the pipes, leaving decent access to get the strainer basket out, which used to be fine.

With VS, you'll access the control panel often, so think about having the control panel easy to access (without crawling under a pipe or leaning way out over stuff). Same for the flip-cover and buttons on the i30.

If the installer says "you only muck with that once in a blue moon, mate, no worries, she'll be right", he might be an Aussie, but stick to what you want. You'll probably be accessing that panel and the controls on the SWCG way more often than the strainer basket.

Thanks - I'm still a bit unsure why the SWG would need to be linked to the timer -as it will only kick in when the pump is on and flowing apparently? Or did I mistake something. My installer seems super honest and knowledgeable but perhaps something was lost in translation.

On my setup - he said I have plenty of room to access the panel towards the back - and for the most part the model I'm getting has a rotatable panel head .

 

[needsajet]

If I explain the old way, it will make sense.

SWCG has a flow switch, and will shut off if water is not flowing, so no danger, however, with no timers or timer set differently, the SWCG keeps on running until it's controller detects the problem, which takes a while. The cell body fills with hydrogen, which is almost always not a problem, but very rarely can cause an explosion, usually set off by something else. Very rare, and hardly worth worrying about, but the damage is extreme so it is worth worrying about.

The prevention is to not rely 100% on the flow switch. So in the olden days, one timer for pump, say for example 8am to 4pm, another for the SWCG, say 8:30am to 3:30pm, then keep an eye on the timers to be sure the sync between them stays correct. You could also wire both pump and SWCG to the same timer, provided that's kosher for local electrical code, and the timer rated high enough.

Nowadays modernised VS pumps have inbuilt timers. Some would say just leave SWG on 24/7 and rely on the SWCG flow switch. The accepted viewpoint here is to eliminate the risk.

Your purchase may already include the RS-485 cable, so that would provide the backup switching so you're not relying on the flow switch. If your order doesn't include the RS-485 cable, I'd certainly buy that cable rather than muck around with a separate timer. You could alternatively use your old pump timer as an SWCG timer, but you'd have to watch that it's pins are set to run only when the pump is running.

 

[Rancho Cost-a-Lotta]

Just a quick side note. Since the VS pump will wired to constant power, plan on using your current pump timer for the SWG. Select a SWG that can be hardwired to the timer.

Thanks - I'm still a bit unsure why the SWG would need to be linked to the timer -as it will only kick in when the pump is on and flowing apparently?

Most SWGs do not have an internal timer. The cell is active and producing chlorine when the control panel receives power. The SWG does have an internal flow switch that is designed to shutdown chlorine production when insufficient flow is detected, but should not be relied upon as the primary source to shutdown the cell. The control panel should be connected to the load side of the timer to receive power only when the pump is running. Here is an example of Pentair's guidance from the IChlor instruction manual:

"CHLORINE GAS BUILDUP CAN OCCUR WITH IMPROPER WIRING: To reduce the risk of personal injury the iChlor Salt Chlorine Generator (SCG) Power Center must be installed on and wired to the load side of the time clock, electronically controlled switch, or relay load side, so that it will receive power only when the pool pump is on. Otherwise, dangerous chlorine gas buildup can occur. The SCG should never be energized when the pool pump is OFF and water is not flowing through the unit."

 

[JackHarkness]

If I explain the old way, it will make sense.

SWCG has a flow switch, and will shut off if water is not flowing, so no danger, however, with no timers or timer set differently, the SWCG keeps on running until it's controller detects the problem, which takes a while. The cell body fills with hydrogen, which is almost always not a problem, but very rarely can cause an explosion, usually set off by something else. Very rare, and hardly worth worrying about, but the damage is extreme so it is worth worrying about.

The prevention is to not rely 100% on the flow switch. So in the olden days, one timer for pump, say for example 8am to 4pm, another for the SWCG, say 8:30am to 3:30pm, then keep an eye on the timers to be sure the sync between them stays correct. You could also wire both pump and SWCG to the same timer, provided that's kosher for local electrical code, and the timer rated high enough.

Nowadays modernised VS pumps have inbuilt timers. Some would say just leave SWG on 24/7 and rely on the SWCG flow switch. The accepted viewpoint here is to eliminate the risk.

Your purchase may already include the RS-485 cable, so that would provide the backup switching so you're not relying on the flow switch. If your order doesn't include the RS-485 cable, I'd certainly buy that cable rather than muck around with a separate timer. You could alternatively use your old pump timer as an SWCG timer, but you'd have to watch that it's pins are set to run only when the pump is running.

Following is my timer - not sure if the SWG and Pump can be connected to these.....I seem to understand the flow switch shouldn't be depended on - but wouldn't it be okay to depend on the VS pumps inbuilt timer (giving it constant power) - and then using the existing pump timer for the SWCG?

Also sorry I have no idea what a RS-485 cable would do ? - assuming this would need one of their "automation" panels ? Not in my budget im afraid lol

Also - turns out most of the "licensed" people around me are booked - and the installer I had lined up - although knowledgeable - has no official license in California - so pentair's warranty wouldn't cover his install according to their warranty card a qualified installer must be one who is "licensed"

x_x I may just install it myself and accept the warranty loss. 2 of the licensed people claiming they are booked until 2022.

I do think I can do it - just need to grab the primer/cement and pvc pipes along with couplers....my pool equipment is above water level, so I don't expect crazy leakage when I cut the pipes....my only issue in doing it is the whole electrical part as I'm not entirely sure what the pins in the T21004R box mean... I'm certain the existing Jandy 1.0 HP pump is 240V - it has 2 black wires and 1 green...assuming 2 hot and green being ground. I may look for a pool electrical guy if I can't find a licensed professional to do the pump.

 

[mknauss]

but wouldn't it be okay to depend on the VS pumps inbuilt timer (giving it constant power) - and then using the existing pump timer for the SWCG?

Correct.
The RS485 will not do you any good with a Pentair pump and Circupool SWCG.

 

[Rancho Cost-a-Lotta]

For 240 volt applications, terminals 1 and 3 come from the breaker and are always hot. Terminals 2 and 4 are controlled by the timer. Connect your VS pump to 1 and 3 for constant power and SWG to 2 and 4 for timer controlled power. Take a look at the route of the wires on 2 and 4. They should run to your current pump.