Getting rid of Calcium Scale

[JamesW]

How is the more aggressive water going to go after and dissolve just the calcium scale without also going after your pool finish? Sorry, not seeing it.

You are correct that acid will go after the cement in the plaster as well as the scale.

Acid does not react with most aggregate except calcium carbonate (Marble) aggregate.

However, the loss of cement exposes the aggregate and this can be very uncomfortable to people like an exposed aggregate driveway or sandpaper depending on the aggregate.

The loss of cement will also cause some aggregate to fall out depending on the amount of cement lost.

The more cement lost, the more aggregate will be lost.

This is why people need to understand the Pros and Cons of using any type of acid.

You have to decide if the "possibility" of an improved surface appearance is worth the effect on the plaster, which will be a rougher surface and a reduction of the life of the plaster.

You can drain (If it is safe to do so) and sand the surface with diamond grit sanding pads and this is probably the safest because you can sand the scale off with less damage to the plaster.

 

[JamesW]

This is why people need to understand the Pros and Cons of using any type of acid.

People also need to understand that there are Pros and Cons that are in every industry.

Do you due diligence and get a Pro and not a Con.

Sulfamic acid will probably work similar to a low CSI in that it will go after scale as well as some cement in the plaster.

As Dirk says, leave it alone if you can.

If you decide to try a remedy, you should understand the full costs so that you can make an informed decision.

 

[ajw22]

There seem to be more Cons then Pros in many industries now.

 

[Cena_sea]

I have noticed sometimes I have a negative csi even with a 7.8 ph on the app. I have inputted 5 borates as a while back I added 20+ sum but never actually tested. But if I move borates to 50 the app will give it nearly double the negative csi amount so maybe adding borates would help keep csi negative?

 

[YippeeSkippy]

Negative CSI is good if you want to help avoid scale.

 

[AmyCJeff]

Following along

 

[rjb1211]

I had a problem with scale before Al Gore invented the internet and I was at the mercy of pool stores. I tried the drain and acid wash routine but it didn’t help much. Wound up getting the pool replastered. That was when I learned about LSI (now CSI) and switched to liquid chlorine.

Once I learned the ramifications of adding anything to the water I was able to avoid most problems. Scale hasn’t been back.

 

[AmyCJeff]

I had a problem with scale before Al Gore invented the internet and I was at the mercy of pool stores. I tried the drain and acid wash routine but it didn’t help much. Wound up getting the pool replastered. That was when I learned about LSI (now CSI) and switched to liquid chlorine.

Once I learned the ramifications of adding anything to the water I was able to avoid most problems. Scale hasn’t been back.

It's funny....now that I am using TFP method I would say the same thing. My CH - 1025 right now, but because I am managing my other chemicals to account for that....I'm not seeing a calcium ring around my water line, or at my waterfall...even thought my CH is out of control right now.

 

[Dirk]

even thought my CH is out of control right now.

Random thoughts...

I've been controlling CH and scale with CSI adjustments and filling with soft water. That solved for scale under the water line, but I still got a ring at the surface. My theory is that it has to do with evaporation more than chemistry. And I had to drop my CH last spring with a minor water exchange, which was pretty easy with a submersible pump. I only had to do that after five years, so the plan is working.

My strategy going forward will be to do smaller water exchanges more often, maybe every other year, maybe even once a year, so that I don't have to drop the waterline as much. I figure the less I stress the pebble, with such a drastic pressure drop and exposure to sun, the better.

That fits with my overall chemistry control strategy. I use automation to keep my pH and FC stable throughout the day, so I never spike my pool with a big FC or pH swing (like people do when they add chemicals as infrequently as possible). Automation balances FC every few minute and pH once an hour. So I'll carry that forward and keep my CH swings to a minimum, too, by exchanging water more often.

And had I kept on top of my tile ring once or twice a year, instead of letting it get as bad as it is now, the remediation of it would be overall less work (and much less unattractive). So that, too, would benefit from this same maintenance philosophy.

I don't have any scientific evidence to back this notion up, just anecdotal, but it just makes sense to me: If never having your chemistry in balance is bad for a pool, and keeping your chemistry balanced most of the time is much better, then keeping your chemistry perfect 24/365 should be better still. Now that's not logistically realistic of course, but whenever I can get a little closer to that ideal, I figure "why not?" And the way I'm achieving that actually works out to be less work in the long run, not more.

2¢

 

[rjb1211]

That fits with my overall chemistry control strategy. I use automation to keep my pH and FC stable throughout the day, so I never spike my pool with a big FC or pH swing (like people do when they add chemicals as infrequently as possible). Automation balances FC every few minute and pH once an hour. So I'll carry that forward and keep my CH swings to a minimum, too, by exchanging water more often.

2 questions -

How long have you been using the IntellipH and how reliable is it? Seems like most on here don't recommend it.

How are you balancing FC every few minutes?

 

[Dirk]

ow long have you been using the IntellipH and how reliable is it? Seems like most on here don't recommend it.

About five years or so. The pump and tank have been 100% reliable. They require the replacement of a couple of consumable parts, but if you follow the recommended schedule for that, the IpH is pretty bullet proof. I've only ever owned an IpH, but I contend some of its unique features exceed those of other brands' solutions. And all the parts are user replaceable, to even with a major failure one can easily repair it.

Now the same cannot be said for the IpH controller. It has a major, known, deficiency which can cause a failure. Pentair is well aware of the problem but has yet to offer a fix (that I know of). Shortish version:

An IpH runs in tandem with a Pentair IntelliChlor. They must both be present, and they have a sort of symbiotic relationship, where they use each others parts and circuitry. The IC's power runs through the IpH controller, but one of the connectors inside the controller cannot always handle the current the IC draws, and so it is prone to failing (it just melts and stops providing power to the IC).

Through a concerted effort, some forum members devised a solution to this problem. A relatively simple wiring hack, which can be performed preemptively (likely voiding the warranty), or after the failure, usually restoring function and preventing the problem from reoccurring.

Pentair recognizes this overcurrent failure and recommends the IpH not be installed along with their biggest SWG, the IC60. But we know the problem can also occur with an IC40. We've yet to hear of the problem happening while using their smallest SWG, the IC20.

So it's difficult to recommend the IpH without this warning. Pentair has been honoring the IpH warranty, but after a year I suspect you'd be on your own. I would buy one again, and perform the fix the day after the warranty expires. The fix is easy, no more difficult that wiring a light switch (just a couple of wire nuts is all that is required).

Hopefully Pentair will address the issue with a proper fix. The problem has existed for years, and why they haven't yet is a mystery. They either have a solution in the works or are planning on discontinuing the IpH, one or the other would be my guess. I expect the IntellipH is not a big seller, so it might just be a matter of "getting around to it."

How are you balancing FC every few minutes?

An SWG does that. Or mine does, anyway. With a setting of, say, 50%, my SWG produces chlorine 2.5 minutes out of every five. The cycle is every five minutes. So every five minutes my pool gets a shot of chlorine. I run my SWG during daylight hours, most of the day, so the SWG is replacing daily chlorine consumption as it occurs. I have little or no chlorine loss at night. My FC is not dead on every minute of the day and night, but it's pretty darn close.

I didn't mean to imply I'm testing and dosing every few minutes. Once I figured out the proper SWG setting, I only need to test about once a week to check on the SWG's performance. The SWG does the rest.

 

[AmyCJeff]

Random thoughts...

I've been controlling CH and scale with CSI adjustments and filling with soft water. That solved for scale under the water line, but I still got a ring at the surface. My theory is that it has to do with evaporation more than chemistry. And I had to drop my CH last spring with a minor water exchange, which was pretty easy with a submersible pump. I only had to do that after five years, so the plan is working.

My strategy going forward will be to do smaller water exchanges more often, maybe every other year, maybe even once a year, so that I don't have to drop the waterline as much. I figure the less I stress the pebble, with such a drastic pressure drop and exposure to sun, the better.

That fits with my overall chemistry control strategy. I use automation to keep my pH and FC stable throughout the day, so I never spike my pool with a big FC or pH swing (like people do when they add chemicals as infrequently as possible). Automation balances FC every few minute and pH once an hour. So I'll carry that forward and keep my CH swings to a minimum, too, by exchanging water more often.

And had I kept on top of my tile ring once or twice a year, instead of letting it get as bad as it is now, the remediation of it would be overall less work (and much less unattractive). So that, too, would benefit from this same maintenance philosophy.

I don't have any scientific evidence to back this notion up, just anecdotal, but it just makes sense to me: If never having your chemistry in balance is bad for a pool, and keeping your chemistry balanced most of the time is much better, then keeping your chemistry perfect 24/365 should be better still. Now that's not logistically realistic of course, but whenever I can get a little closer to that ideal, I figure "why not?" And the way I'm achieving that actually works out to be less work in the long run, not more.

2¢

Thanks for the 2 cents I am 3 months NEW to TFP method...but I would say your logic makes sense to me My CH is Out of control for multiple reasons. My pool was built in March 2020 and I did a 19,000 no drain/refill process in June. (First time I replaced the water). I live in Vegas so our Fill water is about 300. When I did the refill I didn't do it perfectly...I started with CH = 1600 and had some mixing during the refill process...so my refill yielded a CH = 700. Then through evaporation during the Summer months, it has add about 25 PPM per week...yikes! I am now at 1025. At this point... I am waiting to do another refill until winter...simply because replacing 19,000 twice in just a few months pains me...lol! But, I am hoping the next time I do that....my CH will have a lower base point. From there...I hope to maybe get away with partial refills to keep my CH in check...but I doubt it.....lol! But, there would be NO WAY I could go 5 years without doing it.

I would love to get a more automated/frequent process...but I am not quite there yet. I will definitely bookmark your post and refer back to it when we are in a position to add some automation like what you have Thanks for the info!

But, I as of right now since I am still learning my pool and perfecting the TFP method...I do test PH & FC everyday and CYA& TA about 3-4 weeks...so I am keeping up on a pretty good at the moment

 

[Dirk]

When your fill water is just about the correct CH for your pool, a no-drain exchange is practically a losing proposition. You would use less water with a complete exchange. Which I personally won't ever do in my pool, because of the risk to the plaster. So I get the dilemma.

I have close to those adverse conditions, so I solved that by topping off my pool with only soft water (near-zero CH). That's how I was able to go five years.

Are water softeners allowed where you live? Not only would one benefit your pool CH issue, but the rest of your house as well. With CH300 water in your house, it's tearing apart everything it touches: faucets, shower heads, toilets, washing machine, dishwasher, etc, etc. I do believe it would pay for itself in saved replacements and repairs. The expense of the salt it would use is a pittance compared to its benefits.

Installing a softener was the first thing I did when I moved here, and a few years later I connected it to my pool's auto-filler system.

I did a thread about it here, if you're ever interested to learn more about it.

Meanwhile, keep up with the TFP method and continue to learn more about it, because it is the absolute best, most cost effective method of pool care. 369,053 of us can back that up.

 

[AmyCJeff]

Yeah...I have lived in Henderson 18 years and never really wanted one...mainly because I don't like how soft water feels. BUT, I do understand that in the long run it is way better for our house. We can definitely have them in our area. I think I need to spend more time researching them and possibly biting the bullet and investing in one...especially now that we have a pool (First time pool owner we we built our in MArch 2020). I would love if you would provide the link to your thread so I can read more about it

Yeah...for me the exchange of water just seems safer than actually draining...

I have definitely learned a TON here and absolutely love the TFP method. Once you get the overall concept, it really is "easy" to do and understand. I am now trying to convert my brother who just built his pool last year. His pool is a MESS (just like mine was) and I want to help him avoid some of the issues I faced when trying to maintain my pool the "wrong way"

Thanks again for your reply

 

[Dirk]

Yeah...I have lived in Henderson 18 years and never really wanted one...mainly because I don't like how soft water feels.

I resisted soft water most of my life, for the same reason. I felt slimy after a soft water shower, and preferred the "squeaky clean" I felt after rinsing with hard water. But that passes quickly once you start using soft water regularly. I especially like the way soap suds up easily and profusely, something that hard water doesn't do. Now I'm the opposite and hate rinsing with hard water. SWG pools feels kinda like soft water, too. And I like the feeling mine leaves me with, too.

That said, there is no reason you cannot plumb the water softener to just the pool, and leave your house alone. Well, except the reason that your hard water is destroying all your plumbing and fixture, that is. Some here have a dedicated softener just for their pool. And of course, depending on the trouble involved, you can always try soft water in the pool and the house and revert back if one or both don't work out for you. You won't revert the pool back, I guarantee, but if you don't like it in the house you can always undo it. You won't be stuck with a softener you don't need, because you'll keep if for the pool and be glad you did. You really have nothing to lose buying one, and a whole lot to gain.

I would love if you would provide the link to your thread so I can read more about it

Here is the thread. It is really long. It was one of my first, back when I first discovered TFP. It's a running diary of my learning curve here, and a testament to the patience of the many here that helped me. It covers all sorts of topics and challenges I faced in learning a pool and learning the TFP methods. The part about the soft water hook up starts around post # 76.

Water softener connected to auto fill, and new plaster start up.

Part 1 Hi all, what an amazing site. You've inspired me to take over my pool chemistry. I always suspected the previous crew was not doing it well. Now, after visiting here, I don't see how they possibly could have been. In fact, that same crew destroyed my plaster with an acid wash...

www.troublefreepool.com

There are some gaps in the how to (it's not really a how to), but I can fill those in if you need advice. I was lucky enough to move into a house that already had the softener hookup in the garage, so installing the softener was quite easy. Do you have those (do you know what to look for)? If not, I can help you figure that out, too.

I am now trying to convert my brother who just built his pool last year. His pool is a MESS

You may find evangelizing anyone to even look at the TFP site, let alone adopting our MO, to be a challenge. Many of us have stories like that. I must know a dozen pool owners, many of whom have disasters for pools, all of whom I have tried to help with TFP, and I have only been successful at bringing one to the TFP fold. Not sure what the problem is. Perhaps TFP sounds to good to be true. But as you now know for yourself, it is not. It is the real deal.