Fence questions for new pools - Lawyer types needed!

[TotalNerd]

I live in Mansfield, Texas and they have adopted the IRC Code for 2018. Now, understand i'm not trying to be mean or skirt any rules, laws, regulations etc. and I am concerned about safety, but I also believe in personal responsibility and property rights, so with that said here is what is stated.

IRC 2018 305.2.5 Closely spaced horizontal members.
Where the barrier is composed of horizontal and vertical members and the distance between the tops of the horizontal members is less than 45 inches, the horizontal members shall be located on the pool or spa side of the fence. Spacing between vertical members shall not exceed 1 3/4 inches in width. Where there are decorative cutouts within vertical members, spacing within the cutouts shall not exceed 1 3/4 inches in width.
(Site: 2018 INTERNATIONAL SWIMMING POOL AND SPA CODE (ISPSC) - CHAPTER 3)

I looked directly at Mansfield city code and it says:
***Section 305.2; change to read as follows:
305.2 Outdoor swimming pools and spas. Outdoor pools and spas and indoor swimming pools shall be surrounded by a barrier that complies with sections 305.2.1 through 305.7 and in accordance with the Texas Administrative Code, Texas Health and Safety Code 757 for public pools. (Reason: To clarify specific Texas statutes with regulate public pools and spas.)
(Site: https://www.mansfieldtexas.gov/Docu...ational-Swimming-Pool-and-Spa-Code-PDF?bidId=)

I looked at section 757 for the Texas statues it only states it pertains to public pools or multi unit dwellings. Am I reading it wrong?
(Site: HEALTH AND SAFETY CODE CHAPTER 757. POOL YARD ENCLOSURES)

When I view the Mansfield, Texas website for fencing requirements it states:
All swimming pools must at all times be completely surrounded by a fence, wall or barrier not less than four feet high with a self-closing and self-latching gate.
(Site: Mansfield, TX)

This got brought up when I spoke with the electrical inspector who told me that i'll either need to build a fence around the pool, separate from the property fence, flip the property fence so the horizontal cross members are on my side of the fence OR put an anti-climb device on the fence such that a child can't climb the fence and go into my pool. Of course, she was also quick to mention that if one of my neighbors has a pool than that fence border doesn't need to change. This is ultimately what I have a problem with for reasons below:

1. In Texas, property fences are equally owned by both property owners. I can't force my neighbors to flip the fence or install an anti-climbing device on them. So if I ask, and they say no...i'm stuck except to build an interior fence which is something I do not want to do as it prevents me from using the pool as designed.
2. How are they going to check if the anti-climbing device has been installed? Sure, they could knock on the neighbors door...but i'm in a cul-de-sac and I have 7 of them...many of whom I only share a partial back or side fence with who aren't even on my street. Are they going to knock on all those doors?
3. If there is a pool in the neighbors yard I was told this above rule is negated, it still doesn't prevent a child from that side climbing the fence and jumping into my yard. Where is the logic in this?
4. This law reeks of negligence on the parents side not to mention trespassing on the offenders side. Other things I can think of include misconduct, endangerment etc.
5. Neither the pool builder, HOA, or City Permit office asked me where the interior fence was going to be, nor did they specify the rule i'd need one if I couldn't get the above mentioned (i.e panels fliped, anti-climbing device etc.) completed.
6. I have neighbors who do have pools (across the street) and none of them to my knowledge had to move their panels or do anything like that.

What are your thoughts, how would you tackle this?

 

[phonedave]

1. In Texas, property fences are equally owned by both property owners. I can't force my neighbors to flip the fence or install an anti-climbing device on them. So if I ask, and they say no...i'm stuck except to build an interior fence which is something I do not want to do as it prevents me from using the pool as designed.
2. How are they going to check if the anti-climbing device has been installed? Sure, they could knock on the neighbors door...but i'm in a cul-de-sac and I have 7 of them...many of whom I only share a partial back or side fence with who aren't even on my street. Are they going to knock on all those doors?
3. If there is a pool in the neighbors yard I was told this above rule is negated, it still doesn't prevent a child from that side climbing the fence and jumping into my yard. Where is the logic in this?
4. This law reeks of negligence on the parents side not to mention trespassing on the offenders side. Other things I can think of include misconduct, endangerment etc.
5. Neither the pool builder, HOA, or City Permit office asked me where the interior fence was going to be, nor did they specify the rule i'd need one if I couldn't get the above mentioned (i.e panels fliped, anti-climbing device etc.) completed.
6. I have neighbors who do have pools (across the street) and none of them to my knowledge had to move their panels or do anything like that.

What are your thoughts, how would you tackle this?

I am not a lawyer, but I have written rules, regulations, methods, and procedures for a number of things. Plus I used to be in construction and did inspections at one time (for concrete, foundations, roadways, curbs, and earthworks - so no fences)

1) If you cannot work it out with your neighbors, then you need to find an other way to safely enclose your pool area. - ie, interior fence.
2) They can look over your fence. Stepladder if necessary
3) My thought on this is, if that neighbors pool does not have a separate fence around it then it makes no difference if a child is in that yard, or climbs the fence into your yard - they have access to a pool either way
4) You can call it whatever you want, negligence, bad parenting, misconduct, trespassing etc. You still end up with a dead kid in your pool - which is what the law is trying to prevent. Same reason we have codes for things like GFCIs (people should know not to take a bath and make toast) or mandated TR receptacles (kids who stick a butter knife into the outlet are totally at the fault of bad parenting - let them get zapped)
5) You need to comply with the rule - either your property line fence conforms, or you come up with a conforming interior fence. Kitchen counters need an receptacle every 48" - no point on your counter can be more that 24" from an receptacle (at least by NEC). The inspectors may or may not want to see an electrical plan before issuing a permit, but in the end it is up to your (or your contractor) to know the code and have a compliant installation. They are not going to ask you if you have the outlets 22" apart or 23" apart, as long as they meet code.
6) Are you sure the builds are non compliant or is it just to your knowledge. If they are non-compliant did they pull permits on them? If not then it is your decision if you want to call them out for it. If they did pull permits and they were not inspected correctly then you can legitimately complain to the town that their inspectors are not doing their job. However, that does not give you a free pass. Try the "Your honor, I know other people that speed, were caught, and did not get a ticket, this is not fair" defense sometime and see how it goes.

 

[Desert Dog]

Not a lawyer type but we have similar laws. Is this a new pool build? From your description it sounds like you have a shared wood panel fence with vertical panels on your side, and supports on the neighbors? Do you have a good relation ship with the neighbor? Perhaps adding vertical panels on their side? No need to flip the fence. You can nail them up rather fast and both sides would match. If not, you may be stuck with adding a pool safety fence.

To answer your question on how the inspector looks at the neighbors side? They just peek over the top.

 

[ajw22]

Note that your neighbor may have built before the current code came into effect and are grandfathered under prior codes.

 

[TotalNerd]

Note that your neighbor may have built before the current code came into effect and are grandfathered under prior codes.

Nope, one was finished up after we got our permit approved, the other was finished after the council meeting that adopted the IRC 2018 codes.

 

[Bperry]

It sounds like your fence may already be fine as long as the top horizontal member is more than 45” from the bottom one. Our fences back in CA all had a single horizontal 2x4 that capped off all the vertical boards. Maybe you have similar fence construction? It’s not ideal but worst case you could rebuild the fence that way rather than having two fences.

but neither fence type stopped us from climbing over them as kids.

 

[TotalNerd]

I am not a lawyer, but I have written rules, regulations, methods, and procedures for a number of things. Plus I used to be in construction and did inspections at one time (for concrete, foundations, roadways, curbs, and earthworks - so no fences)

1) If you cannot work it out with your neighbors, then you need to find an other way to safely enclose your pool area. - ie, interior fence.
2) They can look over your fence. Stepladder if necessary
3) My thought on this is, if that neighbors pool does not have a separate fence around it then it makes no difference if a child is in that yard, or climbs the fence into your yard - they have access to a pool either way
4) You can call it whatever you want, negligence, bad parenting, misconduct, trespassing etc. You still end up with a dead kid in your pool - which is what the law is trying to prevent. Same reason we have codes for things like GFCIs (people should know not to take a bath and make toast) or mandated TR receptacles (kids who stick a butter knife into the outlet are totally at the fault of bad parenting - let them get zapped)
5) You need to comply with the rule - either your property line fence conforms, or you come up with a conforming interior fence. Kitchen counters need an receptacle every 48" - no point on your counter can be more that 24" from an receptacle (at least by NEC). The inspectors may or may not want to see an electrical plan before issuing a permit, but in the end it is up to your (or your contractor) to know the code and have a compliant installation. They are not going to ask you if you have the outlets 22" apart or 23" apart, as long as they meet code.
6) Are you sure the builds are non compliant or is it just to your knowledge. If they are non-compliant did they pull permits on them? If not then it is your decision if you want to call them out for it. If they did pull permits and they were not inspected correctly then you can legitimately complain to the town that their inspectors are not doing their job. However, that does not give you a free pass. Try the "Your honor, I know other people that speed, were caught, and did not get a ticket, this is not fair" defense sometime and see how it goes.

1. The problem I have with the interior fence is that it wasn't brought up when pulling the permit, by the HOA, or by the PB. I don't want to spend another 3-4k to put in an interior fence and frankly I feel like i've been screwed. The interesting thing about the interior gate...and this I find shocking is there is a minimum distance for the interior gate of 20 inches, but no maximum. In theory, I could put that interior fence directly up against my existing wooden one (no rules against it) which would then make the need for the interior fence null.
2. Good call, hadn't thought about that one!
3. My thoughts exactly, makes no logical sense.
4. Agreed, though i'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not (written word is at times difficult to tell) but I don't want a dead kid in my pool, and yes that would be horrifying. The rules though are written to prevent children 1-3 years old. I can't see a 3 year old climbing a 6ft fence. I've raised 4 kids, and i've been guilty of my fair share of negligence. I've also been zapped by electrical circuits in the house before as well when doing some wiring and replacing light switches etc. It's not comfortable, but it happens and more importantly there are no laws around butter knifes being too large to fit into sockets. There are no shields to prevent a child getting burned from touching the stove either. Yes, none of those will kill you, including the electric lines but all of them require vigilant parents.
5. Point taken, does this mean I can go back to the PB and ask them to remedy it?
6. They were both compliant. One wasn't started until after my permit was issued, the other completed in late 2019.

 

[TotalNerd]

Not a lawyer type but we have similar laws. Is this a new pool build? From your description it sounds like you have a shared wood panel fence with vertical panels on your side, and supports on the neighbors? Do you have a good relation ship with the neighbor? Perhaps adding vertical panels on their side? No need to flip the fence. You can nail them up rather fast and both sides would match. If not, you may be stuck with adding a pool safety fence.

To answer your question on how the inspector looks at the neighbors side? They just peek over the top.

I spoke with the pool builder and he suggested cutting a 2x2 on a 45 and nailing that to the middle horizontal brace and that would suffice as an anti-climbing device.

 

[TotalNerd]

It sounds like your fence may already be fine as long as the top horizontal member is more than 45” from the bottom one. Our fences back in CA all had a single horizontal 2x4 that capped off all the vertical boards. Maybe you have similar fence construction? It’s not ideal but worst case you could rebuild the fence that way rather than having two fences.

but neither fence type stopped us from climbing over them as kids.

There are 3 horizontal members. One at the bottom, one in the middle, and one at the top about 8" from the top. There's about 24" between all three horizontal members and the fence itself is 6'.

 

[JamesW]

Just put vertical boards on the opposite side so that both sides are smooth.

That way, neither side will have horizontal members exposed.

 

[TotalNerd]

Just put vertical boards on the opposite side so that both sides are smooth.

That way, neither side will have horizontal members exposed.

That's a thought, would be cheaper than a fence...i'll need to calculate the number of pickets and see if they'd be willing to do so.

 

[Desert Dog]

That's what I meant

That's a thought, would be cheaper than a fence...i'll need to calculate the number of pickets and see if they'd be willing to do so.

That's what I was referring too in my post. Make both sides smooth. At another house I had, I had the fence alternating at ever panel. I just bought cedar fence pickets and filled in the missing space. Looked nicer and didn't break the bank. The down side is it is on your neighbors side. It will make their side look nicer. How could they complain?

 

[phonedave]

1. The problem I have with the interior fence is that it wasn't brought up when pulling the permit, by the HOA, or by the PB. I don't want to spend another 3-4k to put in an interior fence and frankly I feel like i've been screwed. The interesting thing about the interior gate...and this I find shocking is there is a minimum distance for the interior gate of 20 inches, but no maximum. In theory, I could put that interior fence directly up against my existing wooden one (no rules against it) which would then make the need for the interior fence null.
2. Good call, hadn't thought about that one!
3. My thoughts exactly, makes no logical sense.
4. Agreed, though i'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not (written word is at times difficult to tell) but I don't want a dead kid in my pool, and yes that would be horrifying. The rules though are written to prevent children 1-3 years old. I can't see a 3 year old climbing a 6ft fence. I've raised 4 kids, and i've been guilty of my fair share of negligence. I've also been zapped by electrical circuits in the house before as well when doing some wiring and replacing light switches etc. It's not comfortable, but it happens and more importantly there are no laws around butter knifes being too large to fit into sockets. There are no shields to prevent a child getting burned from touching the stove either. Yes, none of those will kill you, including the electric lines but all of them require vigilant parents.
5. Point taken, does this mean I can go back to the PB and ask them to remedy it?
6. They were both compliant. One wasn't started until after my permit was issued, the other completed in late 2019.

1) HOA is not required to tell you the code ahead of time, neither are inspectors. Yes, I hate it too. Some of them are helpful, but others have the attitude that the person doing they building is supposed to know the codes. The inspector / HOA is there to inspect and enforce, not to teach. I hate that attitude as well, but it happens very frequently. As for your PB not knowing / telling you, that is a miss on their part. I suspect that if you put that fence up against your existing fence they would deem that one fence.
2)
3) It does make sense. If I have a pool and you have a pool then there is no need for a fence between our yards, because regardless of where a kid starts out or ends up they still have access to a pool.
4) Does it say kids 1-3. If it does I missed that, but most pool fence requirements are for ages that go older than that. It was not sarcastic, the point is nobody wants a dead kid, regardless of if they parents were not watching or not. As for butter knives and outlets, yes there is now a code. All (well for all intents all) non locking outlets need to be tamper resistant (marked TR). If you are doing any sort of electrical work on an existing outlet, it has to be replaced with a TR outlet. There are a few specific places (where a kid cannot get to mainly) where a non-TR outlet is still permitted, but almost every residential outlet in America is suddenly not up to code.
5) They will not remedy it for free, but they should work something out with you. For example, a friend just had a house remodeled. His electrician did not use TR outlets (as I described above). They failed inspection. The contractor replaced all of those because his contract was to install outlets that meet code. I doubt that your PBs contracts was all inclusive "Build a pool and anything and everything else that needs to be done in order for it to meet code". But they SHOULD have told you that you needed a fence, and should work with you to arrive at a sharing of the pain so to speak
6) I assume you mean non-compliant. If they did not meet code, had permits, and the inspector did not catch them, then that is on the inspector. As I said, you can be "that neighbor" and call them out on it if you want, but unfortunately just because somebody got away with something does not mean you get away with it as well. I know a number of people who have tried to have projects that do not meet code (lot setbacks, fence heights, line of sight requirements) approved by using the "But this house did it" technique, and it never works.

 

[JamesW]

It will make their side look nicer. How could they complain?

You could wait for them to go out of town to put up the boards and then maybe they won't even notice.

If they ask, just say that it was always like that.

Or, say that you got some cleaner and cleaned the fence and that's why it looks different.

You might have to edit their backyard video so that it shows nothing being done during the time.

Also, edit the video of the old fence to look like the new fence.

People really don't pay attention all that well and the change is likely to go unnoticed.

 

[jseyfert3]

I've also been zapped by electrical circuits in the house before as well when doing some wiring and replacing light switches etc. It's not comfortable, but it happens and more importantly there are no laws around butter knifes being too large to fit into sockets. There are no shields to prevent a child getting burned from touching the stove either. Yes, none of those will kill you, including the electric lines but all of them require vigilant parents.

120 volt AC certainly kill you. In a number of cases it won’t, but treating it like it won’t is a great way to make sure it will kill you eventually. Please do not treat it like it won’t kill you.

You should not “happen” to get shocked when doing electrical wiring. I never have. Please hire out your electrical work to a qualified electrician for your safety and that of your family and friend’s.

 

[JamesW]

120 volt AC certainly kill you.

I am pretty sure that no one has ever said that they were killed by 120 volts.

I'm not saying that it can't happen, but as far as I know, no one has ever claimed that it happened to them.

 

[ajw22]

Even if you don't get electrocuted and killed by 120V AC it can cause serious injury and disfigurement. Some folks are lucky and just get a zap and reflexively are able to pull away from the circuit. Talk to some electricians who have been shocked by high voltage and they can have gory stories to tell. And maybe show you their lasting burn marks. The electrocuted ones don't tell no stories.

There is no excuse for being near a live circuit. I always have a non-contact voltage tester with me when working on electrical circuits and always verify there is no voltage on any wire before it is touched.

Amazon.com: Klein Tools NCVT3P Dual Range Non Contact Voltage Tester, 12-1000V AC Pen, Flashlight, Audible and Flashing LED Alarms, Pocket Clip , green : Everything Else

Amazon.com: Klein Tools NCVT3P Dual Range Non Contact Voltage Tester, 12-1000V AC Pen, Flashlight, Audible and Flashing LED Alarms, Pocket Clip , green : Everything Else

www.amazon.com

 

[phonedave]

Even if you don't get electrocuted and killed by 120V AC it can cause serious injury and disfigurement. Some folks are lucky and just get a zap and reflexively are able to pull away from the circuit. Talk to some electricians who have been shocked by high voltage and they can have gory stories to tell. And maybe show you their lasting burn marks. The electrocuted ones don't tell no stories.

There is no excuse for being near a live circuit. I always have a non-contact voltage tester with me when working on electrical circuits and always verify there is no voltage on any wire before it is touched.

Amazon.com: Klein Tools NCVT3P Dual Range Non Contact Voltage Tester, 12-1000V AC Pen, Flashlight, Audible and Flashing LED Alarms, Pocket Clip , green : Everything Else

Amazon.com: Klein Tools NCVT3P Dual Range Non Contact Voltage Tester, 12-1000V AC Pen, Flashlight, Audible and Flashing LED Alarms, Pocket Clip , green : Everything Else

www.amazon.com

If you are a homeowner working on your own electric, there should be no reason you cannot de-energize a circuit before working on it. I know a number of professional electricians (my brother in law is one of them) and they do work on hot circuits. Sometimes because it is easier and sometimes because they have to. I don't subscribe to the "It's only 120V, I have been zapped before, and the panelboard is so far away" mentality, but there are cases, especially in commercial/ industrial locations where power cannot be shut down to a circuit for practical reasons. When that is the case, depending on the circuit they may wear additional protection.

I myself always de-energize circuits, and after I finish working and turn them back up, I check for voltage in places where it is not supposed to be (luminarie housings, boxes, etc). Maybe it is because I used to work in the field for a telco, and I went through plant school, where electrical safety was drilled into your head. It is one thing to be hit with 120V standing in the living room of a home. It is an other situation all together when you are 18' up a telephone pole on climbing hooks (yeah, I know, nobody hooks poles anymore - I went through plant school quite a while ago - still have my body belt and climbers around here)

 

[Desert Dog]

Let me go back to my college electrical coarse. My instructor liked to say...... It's the amps that kill you, not the volts. Back to the fence to beat a dead horse. I bet the neighbor put that fence up on a budget and it was to code. All the planks are on your side so you supposedly can't climb the fence from your side to the side with a pool. Now you want a pool so both sides need to be smooth so a child can't climb from adjacent property into yours. It does not matter that they have a pool. Equal protection.

 

[JamesW]

I am pretty sure that no one has ever said that they were killed by 120 volts.

I'm not saying that it can't happen, but as far as I know, no one has ever claimed that it happened to them.

I hope that the joke in this post is obvious.

Electricity is very serious and people have been seriously injured or killed by being electrocuted.

Please make sure that you know exactly what you're doing before working with electricity and take all necessary precautions.

120 volts can injure or kill someone.