FC Levels..?

KiloKilo

Member
Apr 20, 2021
22
Belgium
Hi all,
Sorry to start of with such a basic question. Yet I read a lot about FC levels. Like FC 4. Yet my tester displays fCL as ppm. So I believe I should be in the 0.5 to 2.5 ppm range, but how does this relate to the FC 4-9 range?
Again my apologies for my ignorance
 
Firstly, welcome to TFP!

With FC 4, we mean 4ppm. One of the cornerstones of TFP is that the FC level needs to be adjusted to the CYA level (Cyanuric Acid or Stabiliser or Conditioner or Sun-Block - many names, same thing).

Have a look at the FC/CYA Levels.

The FC levels you read elsewhere don't take into account that CYA reduces the amount of chlorine that is available for killing germs and algae (we call that "active" chlorine). Most of the chlorine is in a bond with CYA where it is protected from UV light (we call this part "reservoir" chlorine, as it is not participating in the "killing nasties" game, but gets released when active chlorine gets used up). The reservoir chlorine unfortunately shows up in the FC test, therefore the FC needs to be increased so that the active chlorine (that unfortunately can't be tested for directly in an easy way) is sufficiently high to not just kill germs, but also algae.

In fact, 2ppm FC with no CYA is much harsher than SLAM level (required to clear up an algae infested pool) in our FC/CYA chart.

Have a good read through Pool School, and you'll be a pro in no time.

 
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Hi mgtfp,
Thank you for your detailed answer. I did come across the FC/CYA Chart before. Yet had no idea that FC 4 would be equal to fCl 4 ppm, when I then see the SLAM values even go up to 24 (for CyA of 60) I am chocked in a way.
At the moment my CyA tablets are out so I can not test the values yet as soon as I receive them (hopefully tomorrow) I will do a reading of the CyA and see what would be the corresponding FC.
Although I normally had the fCl levels between 0.5 and 2.5 ppm I see on the chart the the FC target would be between 4-9 (depending on CyA). If that relates to 4-9 ppm than I should seriously bump up the Chlorine.
 
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Welcome KiloKilo. You are correct in that if your CYA is higher, you should bump your FC up to come into line with your CYA. As you can see, FC and CYA have a working relationship just as the total alkalinity and pH have a working relationship.
 
Just a little side note;

If FC level = fCl ppm ≈ fCl mg/l that would mean with a CyA of 60 my fCl would have to between 7-9 mg/l

However legally I am not allowed to exceed 5 mg/l as a private pool. Does that then mean I am forced to have the CyA at 30?!:unsure:
 
Just a little side note;

If FC level = fCl ppm ≈ fCl mg/l that would mean with a CyA of 60 my fCl would have to between 7-9 mg/l

However legally I am not allowed to exceed 5 mg/l as a private pool. Does that then mean I am forced to have the CyA at 30?!:unsure:
Are you sure it's for a private pool and not a public pool? Is some government official going to be popping in unannounced to check your pool levels in your private back yard?
 
However legally I am not allowed to exceed 5 mg/l as a private pool. Does that then mean I am forced to have the CyA at 30?!:unsure:

I don't know about pool regulations in Belgium, usually only chemical levels in public pools are regulated as far as I know.

If that is the case, then you need to choose a CYA level that allows you to stay within the legal FC limits. As you said, either by choosing CYA 30 to have most of the target range available. Or go 40 and keep FC between min and target, but that will require more frequent testing and dosing to ensure not to drop too low.

Lower CYA in Belgium is probably fine, don't forget that the levels recommended here are designed for warmer climates. You have to work out what works for you - every pool is different.

Another option is to go Salt Water Chlorinator (SWG). The regular chlorination including constant super chlorination within the SWG cell allows to maintain lower FC levels.

It's a bummer that the pool industry never bothered to understand the chemistry of CYA and Chlorine. They allow FC up to 5 ppm without CYA, but they freak out at FC 7 ppm with CYA. 5ppm without CYA is far, far beyond our SLAM-FC with CYA in terms of active chlorine and aggressiveness towards swimmers and pool equipment. I'd rather swim in a SLAMed pool than in a public indoor pool with FC 4ppm and no CYA - after that my son smells for days like someone poured a bottle of bleach over his head.

The CYA chemistry was understood and published by O'Brien in 1974, but gets ignored by the pool industry. Search for it in the forum search, it is available here if you are interested.

There are two sticky threads from Chem Geek about pool water chemistry in The Deep End forum, if you are interested. Chem Geek is Richard Falk, a physicist who became interested in pool chemistry after running into problems with his pool. He did a lot of work, going through a lot of scientific papers, many of them existed for a long time but kept being ignored, and contributed immensely to the current state of Trouble Free Pool Care. He is not posting anymore here, but he is still active and currently pushing the US regulators to modify their FC regulations to consider FC in conjunction with CYA. But it is a difficult battle.

Edit: Should you decide to go through Chem Geek's threads, then keep in mind that these threads are old and document the development of the current TFP recommended levels. It's important to not draw conclusions too early on when reading these threads. For example, there are early graphs showing FC half life depending on CYA levels. These graphs only consider FC being protected that is in a bond with CYA. Later on, Chem Geek realised that CYA in higher water layers shields even unbound chlorine in lower layers, making higher CYA levels more efficient than shown in these early graphs. The threads are not an edited book, they document the development over many years.
 
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Are you sure it's for a private pool and not a public pool? Is some government official going to be popping in unannounced to check your pool levels in your private back yard?
Probably they forgot to make the distinction....
Normally I would say they never check. However the other week the did check something else out of the blue. Maybe they have time now for things that normally get no attention whatsoever.

Will hope to post a table with all the values somewhere tomorrow.

@mgtfp Thank you for the advise to read on Chem Geek's thread. Will try and find it.
 

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In another thread, a European member was able to source a Taylor kit in Spain:

Yes, it wasn't easy to find and I'm sure I paid a hefty premium, I got it from:


You can't beat titration with FAS-DPD for FC/CC testing. If there's a chance to source a Taylor K-2006 (K-2006C is the same with larger reagent bottles), then I'd highly recommend to go for it.
 
@mgtfp Cheers for the advise. Will have a look. Found it in the USA, the shipping and importing will be a little thing. Getting supplies in future might be tricky as well. And what I prefer from the Pool Lab is that I get an exact result. Here it seems with color it is more a ballpark estimate. Mind you with the FC levels mentioned here it doesn't need to be that exact anymore as we were doing before ;-)
 
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@mgtfp Cheers for the advise. Will have a look. Found it in the USA, the shipping and importing will be a little thing. Getting supplies in future might be tricky as well. And what I prefer from the Pool Lab is that I get an exact result. Here it seems with color it is more a ballpark estimate. Mind you with the FC levels mentioned here it doesn't need to be that exact anymore as we were doing before ;-)

Nah, it's the other way round. A digital display just gives you the impression of more precision. Titration means that you add and count drops until an indicator dye changes colour - no colour shades, it's pink or clear, green or red, red or blue. Unless you have a colour blindness, it's pretty straight forward. The only shades are to be interpreted for the pH-test - I have problems with that myself and use a pH-meter (but I got used to the colour based test over time, and use it now sometimes). FAS/DPD is also the only way to test above 10ppm, which is required for SLAMming. Taylor kits (and comparable kits) are one of the corner stones of TFP.

You might not need the best possible precision to maintain SLAM level, but you need to be able to get a reading at these levels at all. And you do need good precision for an OCLT at SLAM level, and to maintain target levels. Once everything is running and a pool's peculiarities are understood, a secondary test system might be sufficient for day to day testing and to follow relative changes, and can help you to safe reagents that are difficult to source for you. But from time to time a higher precision Taylor test should still be done to have a baseline.
 
DateTemp C/FTA (ppm)pHfCl [FC] (ppm)tCl [TC] (ppm)cCl [CC] (ppm)CyA (ppm)
23/APR12 / 541137.253.605.251.6588
24/APR12/541137.413.215.492.2885

So the measurement that I gave was the tCl iso cCl. Forgot to subtract. See the table above for the "correct" readings.The one of April 24th is basically just after vacuuming to waste and no other maintenance yet. Will do a new measurement this evening.
 
In another thread, a European member was able to source a Taylor kit in Spain:



You can't beat titration with FAS-DPD for FC/CC testing. If there's a chance to source a Taylor K-2006 (K-2006C is the same with larger reagent bottles), then I'd highly recommend to go for it.
Cheers for the link. Their site is down for the moment. But will check it next month or so.

Estamos realizando mejoras​

Volveremos a estar disponibles muy pronto.
Nos vemos en poco tiempo.
Nah, it's the other way round. A digital display just gives you the impression of more precision. Titration means that you add and count drops until an indicator dye changes colour - no colour shades, it's pink or clear, green or red, red or blue. Unless you have a colour blindness, it's pretty straight forward. The only shades are to be interpreted for the pH-test - I have problems with that myself and use a pH-meter (but I got used to the colour based test over time, and use it now sometimes). FAS/DPD is also the only way to test above 10ppm, which is required for SLAMming. Taylor kits (and comparable kits) are one of the corner stones of TFP.

You might not need the best possible precision to maintain SLAM level, but you need to be able to get a reading at these levels at all. And you do need good precision for an OCLT at SLAM level, and to maintain target levels. Once everything is running and a pool's peculiarities are understood, a secondary test system might be sufficient for day to day testing and to follow relative changes, and can help you to safe reagents that are difficult to source for you. But from time to time a higher precision Taylor test should still be done to have a baseline.
Fair enough. Probably is something of getting used to as well. Will use this method until I can source the kit from Spain (or the US if I get impatient ;) )
 
A cc of 1 or above implies an issue. Typically algae. I am still suspect of that testing method.
Hi mknauss,
You are correct there still is some kind of algae issue. The pool was green at the beginning after the winter season. The leaves are all out of the pool and finally the pool is kind of clear. Yet I still have sediment in the morning. Vacuuming to waste on a (almost) daily basis.
 
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Fair enough. Probably is something of getting used to as well. Will use this method until I can source the kit from Spain (or the US if I get impatient ;) )

I guess you have to use what you can source.

At some point, I actually bought the PoolLab myself, more out of curiosity. The FC test didn't seem to be too bad, but I prefer to keep my FC on the higher side where the PoolLab doesn't work anymore. I also find these tablets quite fiddly, I prefer the drop test, much faster. And I have no experience with long term behaviour, especially when the test vial starts to get scratched.

I wasn't happy at all with the PoolLab's TA-test, that was way off. Maybe the tablets were off, I don't know. And the CH-test required extra tablets, that seemed too expensive for my "out of curiosity" experiment, so I never tried that.

Another option for TA and CH are aquarium kits. The "Red Sea" test kits for example seem to be alright, but a bit fiddly. Problem is, that fish tanks are chlorine-free, therefore those tests don't come with the chlorine neutralizer that's required for the TA-test. But if you can source Thiosulfate chlorine neutralizer drops, then this could be an option.

The PoolLab's CYA-results seemed to be in the ball park, within about 20%, I'd say.

The phenol red indicator for pH-tests forms a different type of indicator at higher chlorine levels that changes colour already at lower pH. Standard phenol reds don't work at FC above about 5ppm. The Taylor test works until about 10ppm (due to a proprietary chlorine neutralizer mixed into the indicator that doesn't mess much with the pH) . I suspect that the PoolLab might show wrong pH-results already at lower FCs compared to the Taylor test. An option could be a pH-meter.

But there is no real work around for the FAS-DPD FC/CC-test. But it might be easier to source that as a standalone (R-0870, R-0872 and R-0003, plus the Thiosulfate chlorine neutralizer R-0007 for TA-testing with an aquarium kit) from Amazon or eBay than the complete Taylor-kit, if you find options for the other tests. I actually bought the Taylor FC-reagents from the US myself - the Taylor bottles have much better dropper tips compared to our locally available option.

Main problem is that TFP members will be hesitant to give advice based on test results they don't have a feel for. By everyone basically using the same test reagents, we know that we can trust each other's test results.
 
Ok....after replacing 1/3 of the water and using Shock which I was told by the seller it had limited influence on raising CyA. I now know that CyA has actually shot to 90-96 :cry: (had to measure it twice as I could not believe it initially).
It turns out that it does somewhere on the container state that CyA will go up. Yet the ratio was misinterpreted as being of only little influence. However when I read it, my motivation has sank to a new low...
On a positive side the pool does look nice (all be it for probably a short period)...
Will enjoy the view for a day I guess and than drain 50% of the pool...:(
 

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