Ecostar and Air bubbles

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After letting the new pump run from 10 to 11 last night the air bubble was large enough to expose the entire clear part of the lid. After running several hours this morning the water level is all the way down to the top of the inlet opening.

I think I'll give them a call Monday morning and report back.

Gary
 
having a similar problem with a Sta-Rite Intellipro VS SRVS pump, but once it gets enough air it shuts off and reprimes-- but then gets air again. tomorrow I am going to replace all the fitting on the suction side of the pump.

B
 
I called Hayward again, and this time received a different answer from their technical support. At first I was given the same answer as the previous support agent (basket should be full to lid). I mentioned this forum as a example of owners not seeing this operating performance.

I asked how to have a Hayward rep come to my house and look at the install. After a brief moment on hold I was joined by 2 additional technicians who supposedly helped do the testing and verification of these pumps.

In a nutshell I was told: "Due to friction from the plumbing, at very low speeds the impeller will not move enough volume to overcome the friction. Because of this an air pocket will form and result in a drop in water level in the basket."
I was, however, "assured" it will never drop below the level of the bottom of the suction side line input.
I asked them if they have anything written about this, such as training aides for Sales etc....nope nothing nada.

So either BS, OR this is the actuality of VSP's. It seems as though the Ecostar is not the only VSP seeing this.
What do you all think? :?:
 
Their description doesn't sound technically correct, but that doesn't really matter. Getting an air bubble in the pump skimmer basket isn't really a problem as long as the pump isn't getting air into the filter all the time. If it is getting air in the filter all the time, then there is a problem regardless of what their explanation is.
 
Their latter explanation is more consistent with what I see with my Pentair IntelliFlo VF pump though I agree that I don't believe this has anything to do with "friction" per se. At lower speeds, there is more air at the top of the pump basket, but it never gets below the top level of the inlet port. This is consistent with needing sufficient turbulent flow to peel off any air in the basket, but at slower speeds some air can remain at the top relatively undisturbed. The amount of air is small, however, not least of which is because the inlet port is very high up near the top of the pump basket. As I had pointed out earlier, the Ecostart seems to have an inlet port that isn't as high up as the IntelliFlo.
 
How do you know if you are getting air in the filter all the time? With the VS 3050 @ 1200 rpm's, the filter pressure gauge reads close to 0...
We had the PB come out and look for a suction side air leak as we still get air pocket at top of pump basket and air bubbles every so often in the closest return. It is still gathering an air bubble at top...didn't seem to find any leak. (we have lubed and made sure gaskets, o-rings are good). Pentair tech said we shouldn't have any air, but I am wondering if this is erroneous as so many others at low speed get an air bubble as well...the tech explained that at low speeds there isn't enough flow so the air leak gathers, but at higher speed it there is enough flow to not do so. The pump always stays primed and there doesn't seem to be a problem elsewhere...however wondering about air in the filter? Also, wondering if you are away for vacation and don't run the pump at higher speed (we have mechanical timer only) if there could be a problem? Will watch it for over a week or more without doing anything and see what the results are. Thanks to all those who are writing in!
 
Sw-
After a week of operation at the low speed the level never went below the suction inlet, so I think taking a vacation shouldn't be an issue. It doesn't seem to get any worse than that level on my Ecostar. My gauge reads "0" as well at 1225RPM. That is my "low" speed and probably the lowest I will go. The pump can be set to 600RPM but that just seems too low and may lower the water in the basket to a nervous level.
 
Thanks jhalpinjr...that's reassuring! I'm coming to a "safe" feeling that these pumps at low speed tend to have these air bubbles collect...yes, there may be a small air leak somewhere but it is often difficult to pinpoint exactly. As long as it doesn't ruin the pump or other equipment I am feeling better!

I watched a video from YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUMJdNyQM5o

At the end of the video, it shows the pump basket with a few air bubbles at top. (looks like a whisperflo pump)...but this is exactly what it looks like at the top of our variable speed pump.
 
Oh...and we run our pump at 1200 rpms (like you do jhalpinjr) for a 14 hour cycle. (did have it at 16 hours, but am trying some new timing) At any event, that speed seems to be the magic number for our size of pool and flow needed.

It's interesting there are much lower speeds than the magic number of 1000 rpms that I have read about---wondering why they have those lower speed on the pumps if everyone seems to need to run it at around 1000 or so? So many things to learn!
 

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You get optimal efficiency on the IntelliFlo when running around 1000 RPM. I don't think anyone has done the same test for the EcoStar, so we don't know what the optimal efficiency speed for the EcoStar is yet.
 
It will depend on the plumbing but for 2.5"/2" low head loss plumbing, the analytical model in the GPM Estimate spreadsheet shows somewhere around 700 RPM (23 GPM) to be optimal with a peak efficiency of 22.6 gallons/watt-hour. The Intelliflo for the same plumbing would peak at around 800 RPM (26 GPM) with an efficiency of 14.4 gallons/watt-hour.
 
jhalpinjr said:
After a week of operation at the low speed the level never went below the suction inlet
Click to expand...
Based on the photo in this post, the Ecostar inlet into the pump basket is pretty far down compared to the IntelliFlo so I really think that explains the difference in the amount of air seen in the basket at low speeds. So long as it doesn't drop so low as to get air into the pump (and filter, etc.), it should still work fine. It's just strange that Hayward designs their inlet to not be very close to the top of the pump basket.
 
I can't see much of advantage or disadvantage with the pipe inlet height except that a lower pipe inlet makes it slightly easier for a pump to prime but that is a really small advantage. Also, with a higher inlet height the air bubble that collects would reach the inlet pipe sooner and would start filling the pipe with air which might have a small effect on pumping efficiency but probably not worth noting. In either case, as long as the pump maintains a vacuum lock and low pressure in the pump basket, water will continue to flow.

As far as the source of the air bubble, for those who have ruled out air leaks, I still think that outgassing is a reasonable and perhaps the only other explanation. Air can only come from outside the plumbing or from the water itself.
 
mas985 said:
Also, with a higher inlet height the air bubble that collects would reach the inlet pipe sooner and would start filling the pipe with air which might have a small effect on pumping efficiency but probably not worth noting.
Click to expand...
I'm probably using the wrong terminology with "inlet". I'm not referring to the level of the pipe going into the pump (vanes, etc.) itself, but the pipe entering into the pump basket from the pool. If any air gets into the pump basket for whatever reason, it will be at the top of the basket and requires a flow of water to remove (assuming the water is already saturated with air). So having the pipe going into the pump basket lower from the top means that at slower flow rate the low turbulence can allow for a larger air bubble/pocket at the top of the basket. If the pipe enters near the top of the basket, then the water flow pushes the air bubble to the pump so it doesn't get as big.

I don't think it's any sort of problem, but I'm just trying to explain why the Ecostar might see a larger bubble/pocket at low speeds compared to the Pentair.
 
I pretty much figured that you were talking about the pipe near the top of the pump basket and not the impeller inlet so my comments were directed at that as well. But in either case, the flow rate needs to be faster than the rate at which air bubbles rise in the water so the difference could also be due to the choice in flow rates or even due to a difference in run time. Longer run times would either draw in more air from a leak or have more outgassing collecting more air. With such a small sampling of pumps, I think it would be difficult to determine why one pump has more air than another. But if EcoStars have more air than other pumps on average, then I would consider the pump lid as a likely suspect. Hayward pumps are fairly notorious for having leaky lids. Better hydraulic designs, IMHO, but worse lid designs.
 
mas- I agree about the lids on other designs (super pump!!!), but in the new Ecostar its a massive lid and a serious gasket. Its totally circular and almost 1/4" thick.
I am going to lube the gasket- it was installed dry by the pool builder. The lid locks by aligning grooves and then a spining motion (clockwise) to seat the lid and tighten- its VERY hard to loosen and remove.

As far as outgassing- makes some sense but the water level is low are very turbulent on top.

I will make some videos and post the links, youtube time!!!!!
 
Do you know how much air you gain in a certain period of time? For example in my case on low speed, the pump collects a bubble about 3" in diameter at the top of the pump lid so I am more inclinded to believe that is outgassing, plus no air on high speed. But it sounds like you are getting a couple of inches in a few hours which is more like what I would expect from an air leak. Given that you already found one leak earlier in the pump lid, there could be more.
 

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