Do I need to pay for engineering, 3D and permits?

[xxenova]

Suddenly got cold feet with the planned pool build mainly due to economy. I paid 1k for deposit but didnt know PB already made some progress even before contract signing and asking to pay for following:
1)Engineering
2)Plan submitted to the city
3)I have provided you multiple sets of plans and 3D drawings that have all taken time.

Am I on the hook?

 

[ajw22]

You had a signed contract?

I think you are liable for actual costs incurred up to your cancellation. Especially out of pocket costs to third parties. I think you can negotiate some of their design efforts as their marketing costs prior to contract.

What was signed with the deposit?

 

[JamesW]

1)Engineering
2)Plan submitted to the city
3)I have provided you multiple sets of plans and 3D drawings that have all taken time.

Was the engineering done and signed by an actual engineer?

How much did it cost to submit plans to the city?

Are the plans detailed and custom?

Did you have an agreement in principle for the build before signing a contract?

How much are they asking for each item or the total amount they want?

 

[xxenova]

No contract signed yet. But was still trying to make some changes/details on the contract. I was surprised that they already submitted permits to the city without giving that update update to me. I guess they wanted to secure an earlier dig date which I requested

 

[ajw22]

They did what you requested. That forms a verbal contract. Verbal contracts are valid. Especially if there are emails or txts documenting it.

 

[JamesW]

I guess it really comes down to if you gave them the impression that you intended to go forward with the project or not.

If they did the work in good faith assuming you intended to move forward with the project, you are likely liable for some of their costs.

If you are unsure about something, it is important that you make it 100% clear that you are not ready to commit.

If you were asking for dig dates and plans and you gave a deposit, that indicates an intent to move forward.

Maybe ask for their actual out of pocket costs and time spent and negotiate a reasonable settlement.

How much are they asking for?

 

[JamesW]

Do you have a full set of custom detailed engineering plans that you can use to build a pool?

If yes, then that has value.

 

[xxenova]

I guess it really comes down to if you gave them the impression that you intended to go forward with the project or not.

If they did the work in good faith assuming you intended to move forward with the project, you are likely liable for some of their costs.

If you are unsure about something, it is important that you make it 100% clear that you are not ready to commit.

If you were asking for dig dates and plans and you gave a deposit, that indicates an intent to move forward.

Maybe ask for their actual out of pocket costs and time spent and negotiate a reasonable settlement.

How much are they asking for?

Still waiting for the figure

 

[xxenova]

Do you have a full set of custom detailed engineering plans that you can use to build a pool?

If yes, then that has value.

Not full set/detailed plan. It does have length of drain, electrical and gas lines which I though is mainly used for estimates. I actually got a bid with very similar plan free of charge from another PB.

 

[JamesW]

If it is equal to or less than the $1,000.00 deposit, you can probably just accept it and take it as a lesson learned.

I don't think that I would pay more than that unless they could establish that they really had incurred the costs.

 

[BC78]

Suddenly got cold feet with the planned pool build mainly due to economy. I paid 1k for deposit but didnt know PB already made some progress even before contract signing and asking to pay for following:
1)Engineering
2)Plan submitted to the city
3)I have provided you multiple sets of plans and 3D drawings that have all taken time.

Am I on the hook?

As some already said but I will add my view.

1. If they are stamped engineering drawings for your specific build then yes you should pay for them. Mainly because you could use these drawing once you do decide to go ahead with it.
2. Seems early to submit plans before a contract is signed but permits don't cost a lot. If you asked him to go ahead and get the job rolling then just pay the permit fee. It's not a lot normally.
3.This is a difficult one as I do renderings for customers but only after a contract is signed because I used to do them on every job and they would take my rendering and go with the cheaper guy and use my rendering to show him what they want. They def cost him time and money working on them drawings and plans and you likely have copies of them. Either way if you had to pay for them then you could use these with what ever company you decided to use in the future so they wouldnt have to be redone.

But in a fairness you could walk away and not pay him anything which is wrong in my eyes. Verbal contracts are not worth anything with he said she said. Been to court and figured that out the hard way one time now all my jobs have contracts.

 

[JamesW]

But in a fairness you could walk away and not pay him anything which is wrong in my eyes.

They have already paid a deposit.

When a company asks you for a deposit, they are taking the project seriously.

If you agree to a deposit, then you are indicating that you are making a commitment.

If they ask for a deposit and you are not ready to commit, then you have to make it clear that you are not ready to commit and you just want to gather information and you are not ready to move forward in any substantial way.

 

[BC78]

They have already paid a deposit.

When a company asks you for a deposit, they are taking the project seriously.

If you agree to a deposit, then you are indicating that you are making a commitment.

If they ask for a deposit and you are not ready to commit, then you have to make it clear that you are not ready to commit and you just want to gather information and you are not ready to move forward in any substantial way.

This sounds like a can of worms. Should never pay a deposit without a contract laying out everything in the scope. The contractor has the guys money and there's nothing spelling out what that money was allocated for. Hopefully he has a honest pool builder.

 

[AQUA~HOLICS]

Are you planning on not starting the project at all or just postponing for a while?

 

[xxenova]

Are you planning on not starting the project at all or just postponing for a while?

I'm planning to postpone for now. Hopefully economy picks up before I commit to starting the project.

 

[xxenova]

This sounds like a can of worms. Should never pay a deposit without a contract laying out everything in the scope. The contractor has the guys money and there's nothing spelling out what that money was allocated for. Hopefully he has a honest pool builder.

PB seems honest as he has completed so many great projects in the area. But I do have some issues with his detail orientation and communication. I was initially in a rush to complete the project for son's birthday so I paid the deposit to get the project rolling. Then he slowed down answering my questions over email when I'm trying to get all the equipment model nos., etc. I didnt even know that he already submitted the permit which I thought he'll be gladly share with me. But hopefully he's just trying to surprise me with an earlier date than promised. But with the project postponed, I guess I can be more patient waiting for his responses.

 

[okpodo]

No signed contract? Not likely on the hook but you'll definitely burn a bridge with this builder if you decide not to pay.

I would have a hard time justifying paying more without something in return. Engineering cost? Give me a engineering drawing. Plans submitted? Give me the approved permits. 3D renders? That's their cost of doing business, these builders dish out renders all the time and have potential clients walk before signing.

 

[AQUA~HOLICS]

If you plan on re starting at a later date, the steel engineering plans only expire when, city requirements have changed from the time the plans were signed by the engineer. Second, if the engineers certification expires at the time the permit is issued.
City permits are typically valid for up to 6 months, after that extensions can be obtained for a small fee.
Steel engineer plans for a typical/basic pool range from $250-$500.
Permits in my area are commonly financially structured by a valuation chart, I personally have not seen a permit under $1,000.
If both permit and steel engineering plans have been obtained and are given to you they both can be used in the future.

 

[Toxophilite]

An approved permit is verification on site plan layout and pool design. If not approved, it's back to layout design and engineering. You may not have been in the loop, but it does not necessarily mean construction was assumed to begin, though usually go hand in hand as permits have expiration dates. Not knowing specifics of your contract, written or verbal, I know some custom home-builders do have deposits to cover pre-contract work, but that's usually discussed up front.

 

[JamesW]

A deposit is somewhat like an engagement ring; you’re not married, but you are indicating intent to marry.

If a person proposes and offers a ring, don’t accept unless you intend to get married.

When a company asks for a deposit and you are not ready to commit to a contract, don’t give the deposit.

Deposits should always be considered to be nonrefundable unless otherwise specified.