Displaced tiles & pebble finish; missing grout; grout cracks

[Vesuvius]

I'm new to all this and could use some advice. Our handyman was powerwashing our patio and stone coping caps and I think must have accidentally sprayed under the coping and dislodged some loose grout, as 2 tiles were on the bottom of the pool the next morning. 3 issues for advice:

1. Replacing the tiles. See attached 1st photo showing the exposed gunite with rough thinset and some missing pebble finish and 2nd photo of the tile with some of the pebble finish attached. Does the fix here require dropping water level below the tile, removing the old rough thinset from the gunite and from the back of the tile, applying new thinset, attaching the tile, allowing to cure, then re-filling the pool? What about the missing pebble finish? I could probably live with how it looks to be missing a small piece there but will that cause problems? If so, how do you replace it?
2. Missing vertical grout in partially submerged gap. See attached 3rd & 4th photos showing each side of the skimmer--1 with grout in-tact and 1 missing the grout. I'm assuming it's important to replace the missing grout, right? If so, what should I use?
3. Extensive cracks in above-water line horizontal grout between the coping and the tile all around the pool. See attached 5th photo. Given this is above water-line, do I need to do anything with this? If so, what?

Please let me know if any more info would be helpful. Thanks!!

 

[ajw22]

Does the fix here require dropping water level below the tile, removing the old rough thinset from the gunite and from the back of the tile, applying new thinset, attaching the tile, allowing to cure, then re-filling the pool?

Yes

What about the missing pebble finish? I could probably live with how it looks to be missing a small piece there but will that cause problems? If so, how do you replace it?

Replace it with some grout

1. Missing vertical grout in partially submerged gap. See attached 3rd & 4th photos showing each side of the skimmer--1 with grout in-tact and 1 missing the grout. I'm assuming it's important to replace the missing grout, right? If so, what should I use?

Yes, grout

Extensive cracks in above-water line horizontal grout between the coping and the tile all around the pool. See attached 5th photo.

What is the condition of your expansion joint?

Expansion Joints and Coping - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

For thinset and grout use...

Tile

e-zpatch.com

Waterline Tile Installation - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[Vesuvius]

Thanks--very helpful. Some follow-up questions and info:

• How urgent are the tile repairs and the missing grout replacement? Could these wait till I drop the water to winterize in early Oct?
• Is there a particular type of cementitious waterproofing you recommend be applied between the thinset layers?
• Do you think the tiles to the right and left of the missing ones should be removed and reset as well, under the theory that some water has surely penetrated behind them?
• I'm not handy and don't trust myself to do this right--what sort of professional does this? Pool construction company (seems like tiny job)? Patio installation shop? Just a generalist handyman type who can follow instructions?
• Re: the missing pebble finish, do you mean just apply a thin strip of grout along the bottom of the tile or do you mean fill in the entire "pebble gap" w/ grout? I'm assuming the pebble finish is just aesthetic and doesn't serve any other purpose but I may be wrong about that.
• It looks to me like we have pre-cast coping (see photos attached). And I'm guessing the expansion joints are the spaces between the coping stones and the patio pavers shown in the 2nd photo. I don't know how to judge the condition of these--what should I be assessing? Note that the spot where the 2 tiles fell off has no decking behind the coping, just landscaping.

 

[ajw22]

• How urgent are the tile repairs and the missing grout replacement? Could these wait till I drop the water to winterize in early Oct?

Not urgent. But I find it easier doing those repairs standing in the pool then being upside down leaning over. I get the pool nice and heated before I begin work. To me it is not a big deal to drain the water 1/2 inch below the tile line to work on the tile.

• Is there a particular type of cementitious waterproofing you recommend be applied between the thinset layers?

Don't worry about waterproofing at this point with your pool. Put a layer of thinset on the wall with a notched trowel, butter the back of the tile, and press the tile in place.

• Do you think the tiles to the right and left of the missing ones should be removed and reset as well, under the theory that some water has surely penetrated behind them?

If they are loose enough to pop off then remove them and reset them. You could end up making a small project into a big project though.

• I'm not handy and don't trust myself to do this right--what sort of professional does this? Pool construction company (seems like tiny job)? Patio installation shop? Just a generalist handyman type who can follow instructions?

The label does not matter. Someone who is a craftsman and takes pride in their work and will do a quality job.

• Re: the missing pebble finish, do you mean just apply a thin strip of grout along the bottom of the tile or do you mean fill in the entire "pebble gap" w/ grout? I'm assuming the pebble finish is just aesthetic and doesn't serve any other purpose but I may be wrong about that.

The pebble finish is the waterproofing layer. If the pebble strip stays on the tile then stick it back on with the tile and thinset. Use grout to fill any cracks around it.

• It looks to me like we have pre-cast coping (see photos attached). And I'm guessing the expansion joints are the spaces between the coping stones and the patio pavers shown in the 2nd photo. I don't know how to judge the condition of these--what should I be assessing? Note that the spot where the 2 tiles fell off has no decking behind the coping, just landscaping.

It does not look like you have an expansion joint gap in some areas I can see between your coping and deck. Yo0u should have a 1/4"-3/8" gap filled with foam and topped with mastic like Deck-I-Seal or Sikaflex 1A.

 

[Vesuvius]

Great--thanks. Re: the expansion joint, I pulled up a couple of the pavers, as they sit on a concrete patio, to see if there is a joint underneath. It looks like there is a roughly 1/2" gap between end of the patio concrete and the beginning of the pool concrete but it's just filled with dirt and poly sand--see attached photo. The pool was built in 2008, the construction contract included "with concrete decking, all necessary piering, caulking, drainage and pvc expansion joints", and there have been no pool shell cracks or tile issues since we bought the house in 2014 (and none disclosed by sellers from before then). Am I safe to assume however it was constructed that expansion is adequately provided for, given the big temperature swings we have in St. Louis? Seems logical to me that these 2 tiles falling off was not driven by expansion, as there is just landscaping behind the concrete there.

Do I need to do anything (caulking or tuckpointing or something else) with those horizontal cracks in the mortar?

Thanks!

 

[ajw22]

I agree that it does not look like the tiles fell off due to an expansion joint. It was probably water getting behind the tile and freezing popping the tile off.

I would rather clean out the dirt and sand from the expansion joint and fill it with foam backer rod and mastic.

Do I need to do anything (caulking or tuckpointing or something else) with those horizontal cracks in the mortar?

Those cracks in the mortar allow water to get in during the winter and the freeze/thaw cycle loosen and crack stone and tile. Fill the cracks with grout or mortar.

 

[Vesuvius]

OK, will do. Is there a particular type/brand grout or mortar you prefer for filing those cracks or should I use that same EZ Patch 4 tile grout that you recommended for that piece?

 

[ajw22]

OK, will do. Is there a particular type/brand grout or mortar you prefer for filing those cracks or should I use that same EZ Patch 4 tile grout that you recommended for that piece?

EZ patch tile grout will work. It will be white unless you color it to try and match the grey mortar.

 

[Vesuvius]

OK, I now have the full plan. You've been a tremendous help...I owe you a beer the next time I'm up in Northern NJ

 

[ajw22]

OK, I now have the full plan. You've been a tremendous help...I owe you a beer the next time I'm up in Northern NJ

I have two sons who graduated from the Olin School at Wash U.

 

[Vesuvius]

Impressive--great school. Did they end up in the area after graduating?

 

[ajw22]

Impressive--great school. Did they end up in the area after graduating?

Both came back to NYC area and settled down.

 

[Vesuvius]

Nice to be reasonably close to home

 

[ajw22]

Nice to be reasonably close to home

Yup, traveled to St. Louis for 7 years for visits.

 

[Vesuvius]

Lucky you....it's a real travel destination hot spot

Another question--I'll have to drop the water level below the skimmers for this work, so do I need to leave the filter pump off until the mortar has cured? The E-Z patch site says the grout and thinset can be submerged the day after they are applied (would you rely on this or allow more time for curing?), so maybe not a huge deal to shut everything down (mid-90's temps) for a day, but I do have 4 main drains that seem to go straight to the equipment pad (i.e. I have separate shutoff valves on the pad for the shallow skimmer, the deep skimmer and the mains).

 

[ajw22]

Lucky you....it's a real travel destination hot spot

Another question--I'll have to drop the water level below the skimmers for this work, so do I need to leave the filter pump off until the mortar has cured? The E-Z patch site says the grout and thinset can be submerged the day after they are applied (would you rely on this or allow more time for curing?), so maybe not a huge deal to shut everything down (mid-90's temps) for a day, but I do have 4 main drains that seem to go straight to the equipment pad (i.e. I have separate shutoff valves on the pad for the shallow skimmer, the deep skimmer and the mains).

Raise your FC up to half SLAM level and your water will be fine with your pump off for 24-48 hours.

If your main drains are good and will run your pump without the skimmers then you can keep it running with the water dropped.

Waiting 24 hours after grout seems to work fine.

 

[Vesuvius]

Great—thanks

 

[Vesuvius]

Starting to worry about getting the new white grout to adequately color match the old grout and the old horizontal mortar. Is there some sort of "standard" grey pool mortar I should consider using the fill in the horizontal mortar cracks? And is Polyblend GroutRenew Colorant OK to use with the E-Z Patch for the tile grout? Thanks!

 

[ajw22]

Starting to worry about getting the new white grout to adequately color match the old grout and the old horizontal mortar. Is there some sort of "standard" grey pool mortar I should consider using the fill in the horizontal mortar cracks? And is Polyblend GroutRenew Colorant OK to use with the E-Z Patch for the tile grout? Thanks!

I have not dealt with coloring's. I just put white grout on top of grey mortar. Cosmetics matter less to me then to other people.