Disappointing acid wash

[e1836936]

Hello all,

I hired a state certified and licensed pool contractor to perform an acid wash on my pool yesterday, and I have to say that I’m disappointed with how it turned out. I paid 50% upon accepting their proposal with balance due after refill & chemical re-balance.

The tech who did the wash didn’t use a brush and it looks like there are some areas that he didn’t even get to. He said that he used 5 gallons of acid and was concerned about hurting the finish, if he continued, used more acid and/or used a brush. He also told me that some kind of “scaling” treatment might help, after refill.

This morning, I sent an email to them with pics and followed up at lunch with a phone call, but had to leave a message for a service manager, but have not heard back yet. The tech who performed the wash is wanting me to let him know when the pool is full, so he can re-balance, but I stopped filling it and I’m waiting until I hear what manager has to say about moving forward.

What would you do?

I appreciate your feedback!

 

[JamesW]

Do you have before pictures?

Did the contract specify the outcome?

What is the history of the pool?

Is the original color white or what?

What caused the stains?

 

[e1836936]

Do you have before pictures?

Unfortunately, no. Only before draining.

Did the contract specify the outcome?

Again, unfortunately, no. It only says "Drain Pool, Clean Up, Acid Wash, Re-fill with treated water & Re-Balance Chemicals"

What is the history of the pool?

Not sure about history, I'm the third owner.

Is the original color white or what?

Looks like blue, in areas that got cleaned well.

What caused the stains?

Algae.

 

[JamesW]

It only says "Drain Pool, Clean Up, Acid Wash, Re-fill with treated water & Re-Balance Chemicals"

They did what they said they would do.

Sometimes it’s hard to know what the result will be.

A lot depends on the age of the plaster, what caused the stains, the original color etc.

Maybe it is as good as it is going to get.

You should always ask what you should expect from a service and not just make assumptions about what you want it to be.

You can assume that it will come out like a brand new finish, but that’s not realistic.

Whatever your expectations are, you need to communicate that to the company so that they can tell you if that is a realistic or unrealistic expectation.

That being said, it is also the responsibility of the company to manage expectations so that you know what the range of possibilities is.

What do you want to happen from here?

What do you think is fair?

 

[e1836936]

They did what they said they would do.

Sometimes it’s hard to know what the result will be.

A lot depends on the age of the plaster, what caused the stains, the original color etc.

Maybe it is as good as it is going to get.

You should always ask what you should expect from a service and not just make assumptions about what you want it to be.

You can assume that it will come out like a brand new finish, but that’s not realistic.

Whatever your expectations are, you need to communicate that to the company so that they can tell you if that is a realistic or unrealistic expectation.

That being said, it is also the responsibility of the company to manage expectations so that you know what the range of possibilities is.

What do you want to happen from here?

What do you think is fair?

Thanks!

Yeah, I guess a bit of discussion about expectations from both parties should have occurred.

First thing I want is to hear back from the manager and see what he has to say. Perhaps, a fresh set of eyes can tell me either that’s as good as it’s going to get or maybe this tech didn’t actually finish the job, and he or another can. It’s impossible for me to know if he actually washed those areas that look like they weren’t, but I do know that he didn’t use a brush, which from a bit of online research appears to be acid washing standard operating procedure’s.

What’s fair? That’s a good question. They are the licensed professionals; if this is good as it gets, then perhaps they can provide me with a plan moving forward i.e. whatever this “scaling” treatment is that the tech mentioned, or perhaps a discount.

What do feel is reasonable to want to happen from here?

What would you feel is fair?

 

[JamesW]

Here are some options I see:

Option (1) Get very aggressive with the acid, which might work and it might not make any difference.

However, it will significantly etch the surface and make it very rough like sandpaper.

You can follow with a diamond sanding to smooth the surface, but that might be $400.00 to $1,000.00 more.
____________________________________________

Option (2) Fill and see what it looks like.

If it looks ok, then you’re done.

If you can’t live with the look, you can do a sulfamic acid and/or a zero TA (Total Alkalinity) treatment, which might or might not make it better.

You can follow that with a drain and refill to get rid of the sulfamic acid and maybe follow with another acid wash and/or a diamond polish.
___________________________________________

Option (3) Replaster.
___________________________________________

Did the service people check for hollow spots and delaminations?

If yes, did they find any or was the plaster solid everywhere?

If there are significant hollow spots or delaminations, the best thing is to replaster with full removal of all old plaster.
___________________________________________

Replaster costs a lot and then you usually have to consider redoing the tile, coping, deck etc. and the project begins to domino into a much bigger project than just the plaster.

If the service company does not know the history of the pool, it’s difficult to tell how much an acid wash will do and what the outcome will be, but this is something they should make you aware of so you can make an informed decision of the cost vs. the potential benefits and the risks etc.

Note that treatment and draining involve significant risk and should only be done with a full understanding of the risks and how to mitigate them as much as possible.

Acid treatments are very corrosive to everything including equipment.

Draining can potentially float the pool, which is usually not fixable.

 

[JamesW]

I do know that he didn’t use a brush, which from a bit of online research appears to be acid washing standard operating procedure’s.

Not necessarily.

Some people might brush and others don't.

The acid does most of the work by removing the surface layer.

If the stains are deep or the problem is the plaster is defective, then acid washing might not do much.

Let's see what the manager says.

Maybe they can come back and try some more acid to see if it does anything.

The service tech should have consulted with you about the results and what your options are at this time.

 

[JamesW]

 

[e1836936]

Here are some options I see:

Option (1) Get very aggressive with the acid, which might work and it might not make any difference.

However, it will significantly etch the surface and make it very rough like sandpaper.

You can follow with a diamond sanding to smooth the surface, but that might be $400.00 to $1,000.00 more.
____________________________________________

Option (2) Fill and see what it looks like.

If it looks ok, then you’re done.

If you can’t live with the look, you can do a sulfamic acid and/or a zero TA (Total Alkalinity) treatment, which might or might not make it better.

You can follow that with a drain and refill to get rid of the sulfamic acid and maybe follow with another acid wash and/or a diamond polish.
___________________________________________

Option (3) Replaster.
___________________________________________

Did the service people check for hollow spots and delaminations?

If yes, did they find any or was the plaster solid everywhere?

If there are significant hollow spots or delaminations, the best thing is to replaster with full removal of all old plaster.
___________________________________________

Replaster costs a lot and then you usually have to consider redoing the tile, coping, deck etc. and the project begins to domino into a much bigger project than just the plaster.

If the service company does not know the history of the pool, it’s difficult to tell how much an acid wash will do and what the outcome will be, but this is something they should make you aware of so you can make an informed decision of the cost vs. the potential benefits and the risks etc.

Note that treatment and draining involve significant risk and should only be done with a full understanding of the risks and how to mitigate them as much as possible.

Acid treatments are very corrosive to everything including equipment.

Draining can potentially float the pool, which is usually not fixable.

Thanks!

That's very helpful!

I’m still waiting to hear back from the manager, but the tech said I should get another 5 years out of the finish; and he recommends “adding a scale treatment”.

Hopefully, a re-plaster is not required.

 

[e1836936]

If the stains are deep or the problem is the plaster is defective, then acid washing might not do much.

Let's see what the manager says.

Maybe they can come back and try some more acid to see if it does anything.

The service tech should have consulted with you about the results and what your options are at this time.

Thanks!

Finally, heard back from the manager. He’s saying exactly that…More acid washing won’t do much, if anything but hurt the finish. He’s going to come back today with a gallon of acid to test and show me. He’s also echoing the tech regarding “scaling” & the need to “add a scale treatment”, but I’ve never heard of these…Any thoughts?

That said, what should I be looking for when he shows me the acid test i.e. how much is applied and/or how long it sits before spraying off with water, anything else?

 

[JamesW]

Typically, you wet the wall with water and then pour on full strength or diluted acid.

Give it a minute to work and then rinse it off.

Don’t allow acid to puddle anywhere.

Neutralize with baking soda before pumping out.

Scale treatments can be sulfamic acid and/or a zero TA treatment or you can use sequestrant/chelator.

Sequestrants typically help prevent stains more than remove stains.

If full strength acid does not make a lot of difference, then a scale treatment probably won’t work.

Sulfamic acid can be left in the water after treatment, but it converts the FC to CC for weeks or months, which can be manageable, but it takes careful chemistry management.

You can drain and refill after sulfamic treatment to get rid of the sulfamic acid, but that’s another drain and refill which most people would rather avoid.

 

[JamesW]

There are a variety of scale control products.

If acid washing does not help, then the scale remover probably won’t be very effective.

Do you know if the plaster has any hollow spots where the plaster is delaminating from the underlying concrete?

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Jack’s #2 Copper and scale is sulfamic acid.

Sequestrants are usually based on phosphonic and tricarboxylic acids.

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[e1836936]

Do you know if the plaster has any hollow spots where the plaster is delaminating from the underlying concrete?

I have no idea, how can I tell?

 

[JamesW]

 

[e1836936]

Thanks!

You’ve been very helpful!

I’d like to think, if the tech did the entire pool that he’d have noticed anything like that and would’ve told me, but I have not personally noticed anything like in those videos.

 

[e1836936]

Well, at this point, it’s almost 3 hours since the time that the manager told me that he’d be at my house to test with acid washing the area(s) that appear to have not been cleaned, and thus far he’s a no-call, no-show. I texted him 30 minutes ago, but no response, and being Friday, I have a feeling, if I do hear from him, it won’t be until Monday.

One of the problems with that is I need to have the pool filled and up & running by 10am to clear a code violation with the city for an un-maintained pool. Another issue is obviously the 50% ($550) balance due upon refilling & chemical rebalancing of pool, neither of which has been completed.

That said, the tech left Tuesday after acid washing and started the water running to fill the pool, but I turned it off before I went to sleep. When I woke up, I noticed how bad it looked and have not turned the water back on, to this point, awaiting the manager’s response.

I’d appreciate your feedback on how you’d proceed from here.

 

[JamesW]

One concern I would have is potentially floating the pool depending on the ground water situation.

Do you have any water nearby like a lake or river etc?

I would want to get filled as soon as possible, especially if there was any possibility of rain.

However, you still want to know if further acid washing would help, so it’s disappointing that the contractor did not show up or at least have the courtesy to call and let you know what is going on.

Typically, you want to keep the time that the pool is drained to a minimum, so the company should be ready to complete the job fully in one visit and not take the risk of leaving it dry for days.

I would probably want to get it full to avoid any risk of floating, which would be a real disaster.

 

[JamesW]

You can do a test yourself if you are comfortable with acid by pouring some on a spot to see if it does anything.

You can also take a clean knife or scraper like a sharp wood chisel to scrape a small spot to see if the stains are just on the surface or if they are deep.

 

[JamesW]

 

[e1836936]

Floating was one of my first concerns that I asked the tech about and he said that the main drain in the deep end should have a valve that automatically pops open to allow ground water in, release pressure and avoid floating. He said, the "they wouldn't have sent me out to do this, if they thought it would pop out".

Yes, although my lot is dry & raised, I have water all around me. The houses across the street are on a canal, the inter-coastal waterway is two blocks away, and the ocean is about 1/2 mile away as the crow flies.

I don't have any acid and the pool supply store is closed, so as suggested, I took a sharp wood chisel and scraped a small spot to see if the stains are just on the surface or if they are deep, and I definitely had to scrape up a little plaster to remove stain.

As for rain, we've been in drought most of the summer and are about 5"-6" below normal, but it looks like we may get some coming our way Sun or Mon.