Cyanuric Acid - necessary evil?

[CreedenceTapes]

You need something that kills the nasties - and 99% of that is Chlorine. Everything else is pretty much Snake Oil.

I may have that printed on a t-shirt with a swimming pool graphic.

 

[Newdude]

Me personally, I might spend 5-10 minutes a day 'actively' looking after the pool. It's less 'trouble' than my coffee machine frankly.

I spend more of my life waiting for the Keureg style coffee both at home and the gas station.

If I get a morning and afternoon cup while at work, that's 3X my poolcare time.

 

[CreedenceTapes]

Lifting the cover a little near a return & pouring in liquid chlorine is recommended.

@P00LNerd, I understand from a first-person perspective the need to over-complicate things, but it's really just as simple as this. I looked into stenner pumps and automated dispensers for a while before I got used to just using a pitcher and reserving my puck feeder for vacations.

Pitchers are dead simple, they offer very precise control, they're cheap, and they don't suddenly fail. Till you get your SWCG, just use a pitcher.

 

[P00LNerd]

Apera PH60 : I've only had it a few months, so I can't speak to longevity, but it's accuracy, precision, and ease of use are great. Way better than one would expect for the price.

Love it. That link is for volume purchase, but I'll find the same or similar model for single purchase. Thanks!

@P00LNerd, I understand from a first-person perspective the need to over-complicate things, but it's really just as simple as this. I looked into stenner pumps and automated dispensers for a while before I got used to just using a pitcher and reserving my puck feeder for vacations.

Pitchers are dead simple, they offer very precise control, they're cheap, and they don't suddenly fail. Till you get your SWCG, just use a pitcher.

I think that's a good plan. Pitcher for this year, excepting the Frog when on vacation, then switch over to SWCG next winter. Thanks!

 

[CreedenceTapes]

That link is for volume purchase

The wonders of Amazon. It opens to a single unit for me. Go figure. Anyway, I'd stick with that model. It's earned a good reputation around these parts.

 

[CreedenceTapes]

The wonders of Amazon. It opens to a single unit for me. Go figure. Anyway, I'd stick with that model. It's earned a good reputation in these parts.

 

[P00LNerd]

Just so I'm clear on what you guys are saying, excepting occasional pH correction, you folks run no chemicals, other than chlorine and CYA?

No scale and stain preventer? No Algae preventer?

If so, it seems possible I could finish out this season with the Frog system, by simply removing the "Mineral Pac". There was a claim made a few pages back that the "minerals" are silver and copper, and while I'm not sure that's true, I do believe the chlorine torpedo contains nothing but Chlorine and CYA. If removing the Mineral Pac (sleeved around chlorine torpedo) doesn't totally screw up water flow thru the torpedo, I'd think this could be an excellent way of maintaining chlorine and CYA in an acceptable range, with minor manual LC tweaking.

 

[Newdude]

There was a claim made a few pages back that the "minerals" are silver and copper, and while I'm not sure that's true,

'Minerals' sounds better than 'metals'.

Marketing gonna market.

If removing the Mineral Pac (sleeved around chlorine torpedo) doesn't totally screw up water flow thru the torpedo, I'd think this could be an excellent way of maintaining chlorine and CYA in an acceptable range, with minor manual LC tweaking.

Depending on the unit, most deplete the mineral pack quickly, and it's likely harmless now if you dont put a new one in. (IIRC).

Then monitor your CYA level so you know when it's too high to abandon that part also.

 

[P00LNerd]

Depending on the unit, most deplete the mineral pack quickly, and it's likely harmless now if you dont put a new one in. (IIRC).

My concern here is staining of stairs (white fiberlgass) and skimmer (white PVC), if I drop scale and stain control, as that Mineral Pac is supposed to last 6 months. I only installed it mid-April, and keep the sanitizer dialed down to its lowest flow rate, due to running solar cover. I think it's realistic to expect it's still putting out whatever it's designed to.

I have already noticed some staining around both staircase and skimmer, even with running scale and stain control, so I can only imagine it will get worse without.

... and on the Algae control?

Then monitor your CYA level so you know when it's too high to abandon that part also.

Yep. Will be much easier with the K-1721 kit, presently on the way. I had been trying to measure CYA with test strips before, and either my eyes or those strips (likely both) don't work very well.

 

[Mdragger88]

Just so I'm clear on what you guys are saying, excepting occasional pH correction, you folks run no chemicals, other than chlorine and CYA?

No scale and stain preventer? No Algae preventer?

Correct

*If you don’t put metals in the water you don’t have to add anything to hide them or remove their stains (sequestrant).
Some people have fill water metal problems which do require some special management but if you don’t & you don’t add metals to the water via metal containing chems or corrosion via bad chemistry there is no reason to add sequestrant “ just because”.

*If you manage your csi you won’t have scale.

*Proper fc above minimum for your cya is the algae preventer.

As for ph,
With my vinyl lined pool & a ta of 60 I never need to correct ph either. It just stays there at 7.5 since I am not affecting it by adding other chemicals which would raise or lower it.
For reference, I bought a 2 gal pack of Muriatic acid about 6 years ago and I still have 1/4 gallon left! I maintain my 26k gal pool & my hot tub.

I literally add liquid chlorine (& not often because I have a swcg),
Cya occasionally, salt occasionally (mainly at startup) & swimmers!
On occasion I put a tab in a floater to help keep cya up & pad my fc in the heat of summer
or if i go on vacation - mainly because someone gave me a whole bucket of them. I have a multi lifetime supply.
They are plain 99% trichlor - no extra stuff.
Using more than 1 or 2 more than just occasionally will mess up my very stable ph so I don’t do this very often.
My ch is low (75 ish) so with a vinyl liner & no heater I am in the “do not add” category. No scale & no calcium chloride to buy.

With these brands & their “systems” they all ultimately are designed to be the disease & the cure. One product creates a problem that another solves! Perfect for them, a headache & pricey for you.
The frog chlorine pacs are literally the most expensive way to buy chlorine.
The thought process is that convenience comes with a price which is true, but dealing with all the problems is not very convenient.
The constant buying of & adding products:
Ph up (expensive soda ash)
Ta up (expensive baking soda)
Algeacides like frog bam (copper)
& sequesterants to hide the stains from this copper!

 

[Mdragger88]

Note* the only way to remove metals from the water is to replace the water with metal free water & discontinue the use of metal containing products.
The sequesterant is just hiding the metals. It wears off & must be replenished if you want to keep hiding them.

 

[Newdude]

I had been trying to measure CYA with test strips before, and either my eyes or those strips (likely both) don't work very well

Test strips are simply too vague for CYA. 0, 30 to 50, 100, 200, 300 (or whatevs yours report) doesn't tell us squat when we want it down to a 10. In the 30 to 50 range bought guess correctly, or correctly enough, but it's a guess at best. Then we add the inaccuracy to the mix and it's worse. Then the color changes as it sits and it up to you to nail it at 15 seconds or whatever they recommend. It's just bad news all around. Lol.

that Mineral Pac is supposed to last 6 months

Again IIRC, they deposit quickly and that level of copper/silver is supposed to last through X months of rain dilution and splash out. Then folks blindly add more, without testing or knowing their current levels and it's only a matter of time until staining happens. In wet climates it takes longer, but it's still gonna happen with enough time / cartridges used.

If the reverse is true (or true for some units) and the unit slowly adds copper/silver, then without an initial spike, said levels are low to the manufactures own specs, then eventually surpass them. Otherwise they'd tell you to test, bring to their acceptable range and maintain at X levels, stopping above that.

It's 'Dump and Pray'...... or more fittingly 'ionize and pray' and there's no control involved either way. The inevitable out of control part brings many people to TFP. Most then defend the reason they're here.

 

[P00LNerd]

Again IIRC, they deposit quickly and that level of copper/silver is supposed to last through X months of rain dilution and splash out. Then folks blindly add more, without testing or knowing their current levels and it's only a matter of time until staining happens. In wet climates it takes longer, but it's still gonna happen with enough time / cartridges used.

Not sure. I guess I could remove, dry, and weigh it. I don't have a pre-installed weight, but I could probably get that at the store. Might answer a few questions.

I have some trouble with the conspiracy theory repeated here, that they install these materials just to invent a problem, and then sell the product to solve that problem. First, no one is buying their anti-scale and anti-stain products from Frog. I'm not sure if Frog even makes any of these products, but I can say no pool store I've visited around here carries those product types in the Frog brand, while they all carry their sanitizers. So, why would Frog intentionally add the cost of the mineral pac, just for the sake of selling someone else's, remedies. Beyond that, adding cost to create a false problem almost never works in a capitalist environment, we have long lists of examples of such trickery being undone by competition selling better and cheaper methods.

If the staining is not coming from the metals in the mineral pac, it is more likely coming from the algea control or from the metal components in my heater's heat exchanger. I understand maintaining proper pH and alkalinity are key to minimizing that, but my pH seems to always trend low between testing and correction.

No one answered the questions on algea control and anti-staining. Are you really not running any of these products, ever?

 

[Newdude]

If the staining is not coming from the metals in the mineral pac, it is more likely coming from the algea control

Most algecides are copper based, speeding up any staining. Again, with no testing before or after. Just arbitrarily keep adding more.

No one answered the questions on algea control and anti-staining. Are you really not running any of these products, ever?

Having an appropriate CYA/FC levels, algae can't grow. TFP has no need for algae control.

If life happens and a TFP-er is to get algae, we remove it with a SLAM, and ongoing control of the algae is once again a moot point.

but my pH seems to always trend low between testing and correction.

The acid in your CYA packs lowers your PH. Again. Without testing the CYA before or after. Just keep adding more. And then constantly raise the Ph that the CYA lowered.

Beyond that, adding cost to create a false problem almost never works in a capitalist environment, we have long lists of examples of such trickery being undone by competition selling better and cheaper methods.

With 10m pools in the US, and even more outside that, there's an endless supply of folks looking for a silver bullet.

 

[SJPoe]

No one answered the questions on algea control and anti-staining. Are you really not running any of these products, ever?

I do not use algaecides.
I do not use anti-staining.
I do not use flocculants
I do not use clarifiers
I use Chlorine (via my SWG) and CYA. Thats it. I occasionally add some Muriatic Acid if my PH is too high. I used to use Liquid Chlorine...but the SWG is simply more convenient (and cheaper).

Trichlor and Dichlor are convenient, shelf-stable products. They are easy to store and sell, and do not (significantly) degrade with time. As they can be delivered via a time-release, they are ideal for weekly pool maintenance operations. When the CYA inevitably gets too high, you get Algae due to the FC/CYA ration being unable to kill it effectively. Then you add pucks with Copper or Silver which kills the Algae temporarily, and then it comes back, so you add another product, and another, until eventually the pool store tells you your Phosphates are too high and you need to drain and refill. As such, they are ideal for a brick-and-mortal sales operation, and a multi-client routine maintenance operation. It's not a conspiracy - its just good business and better marketing.

I'm sorry you're sold on the Frog - but it's just an expensive Trichlor tablet, and then an even more expensive Silver and Copper pack, rolled into a convenient, shelf-stable, cute product, designed to appeal to the less-informed consumer, and which encourages you to keep re-buying. Its not some super magic system. It's JUST. GOOD. MARKETING. The Frog system's own website still recommends weekly shocking (Why? Because their system doesn't keep the algae in check..so you have to kill it each week. Then it takes a few days to reestablish...by which time you're shocking again...).



2lbs of Trichlor in tablet form is about $8. Your Torpedo is $29.95. Its the EXACT SAME STUFF as any other Trichlor tablet.
If you want to use the Frog, use it. If you want Trichlor + Copper, get Chlorox Xtra Blue.


If you want to save a bunch of time, hassle and money - read the
Pool Care Basics

 

[Mdragger88]

Its not really a conspiracy persay-
The fact that many companies (manufacturers & pool stores) still do not fully acknowledge the fc/cya relationship and also have it in their best interest to give the customers what they want- magic potions that make their pool set it & forget it. Along with marketing their ability to maintain “pristine” water with lower fc levels because chlorine is “evil”. Its a double edged sword- as the customers drive this as well. Who wouldn’t want virtually maintenance free clear water? Sounds great but this combo rarely works long term without issues. As you know, clear water doesn’t always equal sanitary water.

Then the “fix” products must come in to play- its more of a natural snowball effect than a conspiracy.
Low fc = algae so you need algaecide to keep the pool clear.
You are correct that Frog (king technologies) surprisingly doesn’t sell stain & scale but most all the others do because people with green hair & fingernails or stained pools aren’t happy customers.
Pristine blue, bioguard, & permasalt, to name a couple well known ones, follow this m.o. of add copper—> sell sequestrant.
Along with requiring other things like mps (non chlorine shock) in an effort to keep under sanitized/over stabilized pools clear.
That’s not to say that some of the products aren’t ok to use (if you’re into expensive stuff) - they key is knowing exactly what you’re putting in your water (actual ingredients) & exactly how it will affect it.
Then only putting in what your pool needs when it needs it - based on your own accurate testing. If you do this you don’t need fixes.

 

[Saturn94]

they key is knowing exactly what you’re putting in your water (actual ingredients) & exactly how it will affect it.
Then only putting in what your pool needs when it needs it - based on your own accurate testing. If you do this you don’t need fixes.

This!!!

 

[Donldson]

There was a claim made a few pages back that the "minerals" are silver and copper, and while I'm not sure that's true

That was not a "claim", it was citing publicly available information from King Technology itself.

Pool Frog Mineral Reservoir SDS

Frog BAM Algaecide SDS

A store that sells copper for pools as well as sequestrants for copper in pools is making money selling a problem and the cure to the problem. That is just a basic factual statement, not a conspiracy. Nor is it a conspiracy to point out that the entire Frog system is based on putting easily available chemicals in to a proprietary container and selling it at a massive profit. There's 2.2 pounds of trichlor in a single Bac Pac that retails for $30. The same amount of 1 inch trichlor tabs in a big bucket costs $12. Don't even get me started on the actual value of the tiny amount of silver in those $112 mineral pacs they say need replaced every six months...

And finally, to answer your question, I do use algae control. I use chlorine. It's super effective.

 

[tfpflana1502]

I'm running a 15k gallon pool (Radiant Metric semi-inground) with solar cover and heat pump heater, with a Frog Leap system, and having one heck of a time with ever-increasing cyanuric acid levels. It's to the point where I just ran the Frog Leap without a chlorine "torpedo" most of last season, finding it easier to manually dose liquid chlorine. Unfortunately, it appears there's no chlorine pack for this sanitizer, which does not contain cyanuric acid.

We changed out about 25% of the water in the pool this spring, and have been holding the chlorine at a nice 0.5 - 2.0 ppm, which is ideal for the Frog mineral pac systems. However, our CYA levels have already crept up beyond 50 ppm, to where the dealer is now telling me I should be pushing the chlorine higher, to keep the proper free chlorine / CYA ratio. Of course, that's a slippery slope, as turning up the chlorinator also means increasing CYA input to the pool, on the Frog system.

I suspect "get rid of that Frog system" is going to be somewhere in the answers to this post, but my dealer seems to love them, and I do like the idea of running lower chlorine levels they promote. I just don't understand why they put so much CYA in these things, and don't offer a low-CYA or even CYA-free version of the torpedo packs, for those of us having this problem. It appears I'm not the only one.

Two questions to start:

1. I'm told the only way to lower CYA is by water exchange, but I also see products online that claim to reduce or remove CYA. Do they work? How?
2. Would removing the solar cover reduce CYA? I've seen conflicting info on this. I thought solar cover (blue) = reduced need for chlorine = reduced CYA input from sanitizer, since the CYA is in the chlorine tablets.

The only other complicating factor is that the sanitizer is downstream of our heater, which runs variably according to weather, and whether we have the solar cover installed overnight. When the heater runs a lot, the chlorine (with CYA) levels spike up, due to heated water dissolving the tablets much more quickly than unheated water. The Frog will over-chlorinate the pool in this scenario, even with it's control knob dialed down to zero, unless you remove the chlorine torpedo or bypass the Frog completely.

Thanks!

To answer the question whether CYA is a necessary evil; I'm about to find out.

Chlorine is necessary as well as balanced pH. SW cell generates my chlorine; I buy the muriatic acid for lowering pH. I only add salt when needed which helps if chlorine is low due to burnoff.

I plan to keep the chlorine and ph balanced fine and see what happens with little to no CYA because the price is now prohibitive. I would rather spend the money on cleaner parts, or other pool system parts as necessary. Thank you Federal Reserve.

 

[Newdude]

I plan to keep the chlorine and ph balanced fine and see what happens with little to no CYA because the price is now prohibitive

There's no 'seeing' about it. Without CYA the half life of FC can be as low as 20 mins depending on the Ph.

Most of us realize our CYA dipped when we see unusual FC loss. There is no need to experiment here. It's well proven and also well documented.