CYA issues

[dariushd]

Hello, firstly, thank all of you for this great forum. I've been a reader ever since I bought a house with a pool 3 years ago, and it's helped me make better decisions.
Ok, my 25K gallon pool has everything in check, except for the CYA readins which are at about 200. They were around 200 2.5 years ago when I first bought the house, and I did a water change to bring it to around 80. I live in California and I want to avoid wasting water again.
So I am trying BioActive out, and here is my experience so far.
I set my chlorines to 2-3ppm, less than 100 Phosphates, pH was at 7.6 or so, and TA was about 100-120. Water temp was 76F. I waited 8 days after my last shock and Phosphate treatment.
So everything was completely in line with the parameters for using BioActive. Or so I thought!
I put in 16oz of BioActive in the skimmer as instructed and waited 48 hours before testing CYA levels, and when I did, I saw NO change. NONE. $70 gone it seems.
Another day and still no change, CYA is at 200.
Then it struck me, my chlorine tabs in my feeder (yes I know tabs increase CYA) have a little algaecide in them (copper something). AAAARGH! So now I've closed off the feeder, and am monitoring and adjusting chlorine with liquid daily while I wait another week or so to try another BioActive treatment. :-|

If it weren't for those tabs, I would be certain that this treatment does not work. I cannot imagine they have that much algaecide to kill of the BioActive, but I need to be sure before I panic and dump half my pool out.

So aside from going BBB, which I need to educate myself on and see if it's an option, are there any tabs I can use in my feeder that don't harm CYA so much? I'm using Clorox Blue from Costco. I get greenish yellow algae on the shadow side of my pool that I need to brush probably just over once a week, is this normal? Or is it what I suspect: that the CYA is too high for the chlorine to work? I've read the forum posts on it, and reviews online and it seems like a hit or miss.

And lastly, seeing as I have an offline feeder (Pentair Rainbow, and I love it), should I do an oxidizing (non chlorine) shock once a week, or do a chlorine (trichlor or dichlor powder? or liquid?) shock weekly?

 

[JoyfulNoise]

You can search BioActive here on the forum and find out that the product simply does not work. We had high hopes for it and even had a rep from BioActive log into the site to advise folks. All of the experiments people performed showed that the product simply did not work. The results were either zero reduction in CYA or a CYA reduction that was so minimal as to be in the noise of the CYA test. It is, quite simply, a waste of money.

To lower CYA you have to stop using all forms of granular chlorine and switch to liquid chlorine or bleach. There are no tablets that do not have CYA in them and the Clorox tabs are worse because they contain metal algaecides (copper) which we specifically recommend you stay away from unless you want to have staining issues in your pool.

Read through TFP's Pool School and you will learn how to take care of your pool properly so that high stabilizer is no longer an issue. Tablet based chlorine feeders only lead you to more problems so you should either consider getting a salt water chlorine generator if conveniences is needed or a liquid chlorine pump (Stenner pump).

Get your own test kit (TFP recommends two versions, either the TF-100 from TFTestKits OR the Taylor K-2006C from Taylor Technologies) and test your water yourself. Stay out of the pool store and do not listen to their advice which is based on selling you chemicals you don't need.

 

[dariushd]

Awesome, thank you. Is the sodium metal residue in liquid chlorine a concern? I have read a bit about the Hasa liquid feeder, is that something worthwhile? I'll check into a liq. chlorine pump as well, we need as automated as possible.
I'll get rid of the Clorox tabs asap and use liquid manually as I try to figure this CYA out. I have read some reports of BioActive working, so I figure it's worth $100 to try it out (again) to make sure I don't waste all this water in LA.

 

[borjis]

I was one of those that tried Bioactive. You would be throwing that $ 100 out the window.

Save your money and time is my advice.

 

[jaduck]

Sodium is not a concern! Liquid chlorine only adds FC and NaCL (salt). I don't know about the HASA feeder, but Stenner pumps are super. I'm installing one now! As Matt said, Bioactive is not a reliable method to lower your CYA. If they could harvest CYA consuming bacteria, that might reduce CYA in pools. The problem with that is the production of ammonia...that will take a ton of bleach just to handle the ammonia levels. All in all cost ends up being, at best, a wash.

 

[Philo]

I put 4 packages ($250) in my CYA caused chlorine locked pool. N-O-T-H-I-N-G. I got a lot of rewards points, just about enough to get a couple of gallons of bleach. Thanks Leslies......

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Awesome, thank you. Is the sodium metal residue in liquid chlorine a concern? I have read a bit about the Hasa liquid feeder, is that something worthwhile? I'll check into a liq. chlorine pump as well, we need as automated as possible.
I'll get rid of the Clorox tabs asap and use liquid manually as I try to figure this CYA out. I have read some reports of BioActive working, so I figure it's worth $100 to try it out (again) to make sure I don't waste all this water in LA.

Sodium exists as an ion in solution and, as such, is irrelevant to pool water (Na+ ion has extremely large solubilities and there are almost no sodium salts that will scale out of solution at any reasonable pH level). Bleach contains sodium hypochlorite which, when added to pool water is slightly basic BUT all chlorine reactions (oxidation and sanitation) are acidic in nature and so sodium hypochlorite, on net balance, is pH neutral. Bleach solutions also contain excess sodium chloride from the manufacturing process (about 200-400ppm per gallon jug) and excess lye (sodium hydroxide) in order to adjust the pH of the bleach solution up above 12 so that it does not degrade over time. The amount of excess alkalinity added by bleach is so small as to be mostly irrelevant to overall TA levels when one is using bleach for day-to-day chlorination. Large quantities of chlorinating liquid added all at once to a pool will raise pH and TA, but that is easily counteracted with acid doses.

As others have said, the BioAcitve stuff is a waste of time and money. You need to drain about 75% of your pool and refill. Once you get your CYA down to reasonable levels, water balance will be easy to achieve and you can spend more time swimming and less time fiddling with your pool.

 

[AUSpool]

If it weren't for those tabs, I would be certain that this treatment does not work. I cannot imagine they have that much algaecide to kill of the BioActive, but I need to be sure before I panic and dump half my pool out.

Technically you cant kill that which is not alive. BioActive and like products are made by culturing several bacteria strains which are then freeze dried and crushed to leave enzymes. The freeze drying kills any viable bacteria leaving enzymes that are supposed to 'pull apart' the CYA molecule, but when applied in the real world the results have been way less than experimental predictions.

There's more on cyuranic acid here; Degradation of Cyanuric Acid (CYA))

 

[dariushd]

I put 4 packages ($250) in my CYA caused chlorine locked pool. N-O-T-H-I-N-G. I got a lot of rewards points, just about enough to get a couple of gallons of bleach. Thanks Leslies......

Yeah, I know it'll most likely be a waste of another $100. With water being a shortage here (recently out of a drought in LA), I hitnk it may be a worthwhile long shot gamble to save 15k gallons of water. If it works, it'll save me $400 in water bill. I've got a good week before I can even try it again, so I'm gonna take everyone's comments under consideration. That $100 could go toward the $400 water bill refilling that money pit I call a pool.

I swear, it'll be more efficient to drain the entire pool, fill it with all the cash I have in the world, and just set it on fire.

What do my chlorine levels need to be with a CYA of 200 to maintain sanitation? I am seeing suggestions of 15-20!! Not cool. I just drained this thing 2.5 years ago.

 

[dariushd]

Also, here is the Hasa liq chlorine feeder I was looking at. I've been trying to figure out what I'd need for the stenner pump, still have some reading and searching to do, but any pointers or recommendations on what that takes, I'd appreciate.
If I do liquid chlorine, do I need to add stabilizer and/or Bromine? And if I do chlorine, is there anything wrong with the HDX liq chlorine I can get at Home Depot? If I do drain my pool (which it's looking likely), it'll have to wait for after this season and I hope to never have to again. Total Dissolved Solids is an issue with liq chlorine? Or is that a scare tactic from Leslie's?

 

[Richard320]

Also, here is the Hasa liq chlorine feeder I was looking at. I've been trying to figure out what I'd need for the stenner pump, still have some reading and searching to do, but any pointers or recommendations on what that takes, I'd appreciate.
If I do liquid chlorine, do I need to add stabilizer and/or Bromine? And if I do chlorine, is there anything wrong with the HDX liq chlorine I can get at Home Depot? If I do drain my pool (which it's looking likely), it'll have to wait for after this season and I hope to never have to again. Total Dissolved Solids is an issue with liq chlorine? Or is that a scare tactic from Leslie's?

You need some CYA in the water. As you've discovered, it doesn't go away. Add it once and you're done for the season. I use a puck floater when I'm gone for more than a weekend, and that replenishes whatever I've lost from backwashing and splashout.

There's nothing wrong with the HDX pool chlorine except that at the end of summer, they get no more and whatever you buy later in the year is likely leftovers. Expensive salt water, essentially. I buy HASA 12.5% chlorine in returnable jugs for $3.85/gallon. Ever see those orange and yellow milk crates in the back of the pool guys' trucks? That's the stuff. http://www.hasapool.com/dealer_locator_hasa.php

If I were in your shoes I'd bite the bullet and do the drain now while there's lots of water and the drought emergency is over. You don't know what next year will bring. I got stuck with astronomical CYA and severe restrictions and had to maintain my pool at 20 FC. Every single FC test had to be done with the FAS-DPD test and my pH readings were always suspect. It's sooooo much easier at a lower CYA. I'm not sure who your water company is, but my water works out to about half a cent per gallon. Replacing 80% of your pool water would cost a hundred bucks. And you know that will be successful, unlike the bioactive.

As an aside.... are you relying on the pool store to test your CYA, or do you have your own test kit?

 

[dariushd]

You need some CYA in the water. As you've discovered, it doesn't go away. Add it once and you're done for the season. I use a puck floater when I'm gone for more than a weekend, and that replenishes whatever I've lost from backwashing and splashout.

There's nothing wrong with the HDX pool chlorine except that at the end of summer, they get no more and whatever you buy later in the year is likely leftovers. Expensive salt water, essentially. I buy HASA 12.5% chlorine in returnable jugs for $3.85/gallon. Ever see those orange and yellow milk crates in the back of the pool guys' trucks? That's the stuff. http://www.hasapool.com/dealer_locator_hasa.php

If I were in your shoes I'd bite the bullet and do the drain now while there's lots of water and the drought emergency is over. You don't know what next year will bring. I got stuck with astronomical CYA and severe restrictions and had to maintain my pool at 20 FC. Every single FC test had to be done with the FAS-DPD test and my pH readings were always suspect. It's sooooo much easier at a lower CYA. I'm not sure who your water company is, but my water works out to about half a cent per gallon. Replacing 80% of your pool water would cost a hundred bucks. And you know that will be successful, unlike the bioactive.

As an aside.... are you relying on the pool store to test your CYA, or do you have your own test kit?

For me, it's LADWP, and if I recall properly, the last drain I did cost about $300-400 that month to fill the pool. I guess I should do the drain. Ooof.
I just got my own Blue Devil test kit and did a 50% dilution and it came out at about 100 which equals 200. Pool store said it's between 150-200.
Is this an option for auto liq chlorine feeding?
Pentair Chlorine Tank with Tank Mounted Pump 522473 | Pentair 522473
I already have a timer switch at my pool, I could hook it up to that and skip the $800 controller they sell.
The pool used to be salt, before I bought the house, so it has all the salt control equipment, is any of that useful if I try to do an auto liq chlorine?
I considered going salt, but I read a lot of bad stuff about salt water and corrosion and it's own issues, seems like liquid chlorine with a regular pool is the way to go. Man, this stuff is hard to get used to.